Why is Maul such a mediocre force user?

Originally posted by Nephthys
In terms of what? I don't recall much in the way of esoteric combat techniques from Maul while the Wrath has been credited with telepathy, beast control, force cloak, force drain, force stasis and force terror. The Wraths command of the dark side has been stated to be legendary.

This is my crack at consolidating everything Force-related for him, sans comic stuff which I could put in a zip file or something:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11QQsVSAmA3heIduRj5GuuuQVGGZCzkOEB3XK_zDCwEU/edit?usp=sharing

Originally posted by ILS
Maul has shown all of this aside from Beast Control (which is pretty basic) and Drain, in addition to extremely advanced Mechu-Deru.

This is my crack at consolidating everything Force-related for him, sans comic stuff which I could put in a zip file or something:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11QQsVSAmA3heIduRj5GuuuQVGGZCzkOEB3XK_zDCwEU/edit?usp=sharing

Force cloak is different from concealing your presence, I'm talking about invisibility here. I'm also not seeing stasis or force fear anywhere?

Mechu-Deru isn't combat useful. I was thinking about those kinds of things.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Force cloak is different from concealing your presence, I'm talking about invisibility here. I'm also not seeing stasis or force fear anywhere?

Mechu-Deru isn't combat useful. I was thinking about those kinds of things.

"Fortunately there was a human officer at the checkpoint, asking those coming and going to state their business. It was ridiculously easy for Maul to cloak himself in the Force and thus slip by the dim-witted fellow."
―Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

For Stasis, he held Satine in Stasis, and for Terror/Fear, I'm sure he's instilled fear in people before but the most obvious example I can think of is putting an Iktochi telepath into a coma by looking at him.

There's also him surviving being cut in half, which was credited to his strength and knowledge of the Dark Side. It's unprecedented as a feat and was something Sidious hadn't considered possible until he saw it happen.

nb n!gga

Well ?

Originally posted by ILS
Maul's done both.

"Fortunately there was a human officer at the checkpoint, asking those coming and going to state their business. It was ridiculously easy for Maul to cloak himself in the Force and thus slip by the dim-witted fellow."
―Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

For Stasis, he held Satine in Stasis, and for Terror/Fear, I'm sure he's instilled fear in people before but the most obvious example I can think of is putting an Iktochi telepath into a coma by looking at him.

There's also him surviving being cut in half, which was credited to his strength and knowledge of the Dark Side. It's unprecedented as a feat and was something Sidious hadn't considered possible until he saw it happen.

Hmm, not air-tight.

When did he stasis Satine? I thought he choked her. Regardless by all accounts the Wrath is easily on par with him in terms of advanced techniques, if not superior. I feel we've established that the Wrath has been underestimated.

Unprecedented except for Simus who lived as a head, you mean. Oh and Revan coming back from the dead. And Sion. Actually, I think Draagh came back from more damage than Maul did maybe.

Originally posted by ILS
Maul has shown all of this aside from Beast Control (which is pretty basic) and Drain, in addition to extremely advanced Mechu-Deru.

This is my crack at consolidating everything Force-related for him, sans comic stuff which I could put in a zip file or something:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11QQsVSAmA3heIduRj5GuuuQVGGZCzkOEB3XK_zDCwEU/edit?usp=sharing

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmm, not air-tight.

When did he stasis Satine? I thought he choked her. Regardless by all accounts the Wrath is easily on par with him in terms of advanced techniques, if not superior. I feel we've established that the Wrath has been underestimated.

Unprecedented except for Simus who lived as a head, you mean. Oh and Revan coming back from the dead. And Sion. Actually, I think Draagh came back from more damage than Maul did maybe.

I don't know, Wrath is meant to have knowledge of all these techniques, but then Maul should have just as if not more knowledge than people like Ventress and Sidious' other underlings, who have working talent with necromancy/Force drain/alchemy and other ancient practices. Not to mention the Sith archives Maul was allowed to peruse which he used to learn the histories of Revan/Malak, Kun, Bane and so on. Bound to have found some cool shit in there.

Simus lived in a jar which acted as life support, Maul remained conscious after being cut in half, travelled halfway across the galaxy, constructed functioning spider legs for himself and lived in dogpoop for 12 years surviving on pure hatred and the odd bit of raw meat - kinda different. Revan and Sion are weird cases, don't have much to add there (plus Revan is beyond Wrath anyway).

Stasis is supposed to be a telepathic freezing of an opponent, but no one told Drew Karpyshyn that so it's debatable now. 👆

Maul is a mediocre Force user because his feats of power have been, by and large, widely been replicated. He hasn't shown much knowledge of the Sith techniques in combat, despite having plenty of opportunities to showcase them. So all that's left, I shall await the next season of Rebels before casting judgement to see if he's picked up any new tricks. I'm not exactly holding my breath.

Originally posted by ILS
If by Stasis you mean leaving someone suspended in one place without the need for gesture, that's what he did to her.

I don't know, Wrath is meant to have knowledge of all these techniques, but then Maul should have just as if not more knowledge than people like Ventress and Sidious' other underlings, who have working talent with necromancy/Force drain/alchemy and other ancient practices. Not to mention the Sith archives Maul was allowed to peruse which he used to learn the histories of Revan/Malak, Kun, Bane and so on. Bound to have found some cool shit in there.

Simus lived in a jar which acted as life support, Maul remained conscious after being cut in half, travelled halfway across the galaxy, constructed functioning spider legs for himself and lived in dogpoop for 12 years surviving on pure hatred and the odd bit of raw meat - kinda different. Revan and Sion are weird cases, don't have much to add there (plus Revan is beyond Wrath anyway).

It isn't. It's paralysis, so I guess that is another thing the Wrath has over Maul.

That seems an awful lot like a bunch of speculation. Mauls never displayed anything like the techniques you named. Just because Ventress can do something doesn't suggest Maul can. Sidious trained Maul to be a weapon, he had no need to teach him necromancy and alchemy. The Wrath isn't meant to have these techniques, he does. Maul can't say the same about the things you're suggesting he might possess. And learning about peoples histories isn't remotely the same thing as learning their techniques, lol.

So Maul is better at losing then. Good for him. The Wrath can shape the Force to become nearly invulnerable. Personally I find that more useful than not dying when cut in half.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't. It's paralysis, so I guess that is another thing the Wrath has over Maul.

That seems an awful lot like a bunch of speculation. Mauls never displayed anything like the techniques you named. Just because Ventress can do something doesn't suggest Maul can. Sidious trained Maul to be a weapon, he had no need to teach him necromancy and alchemy. The Wrath isn't meant to have these techniques, he does. Maul can't say the same about the things you're suggesting he might possess. And learning about peoples histories isn't remotely the same thing as learning their techniques, lol.

So Maul is better at losing then. Good for him. The Wrath can shape the Force to become nearly invulnerable. Personally I find that more useful than not dying when cut in half.

Not really. I've proven in other threads that Maul was meant to be much more than a weapon, and TCW makes this abundantly clear as well. If you can read what I've linked below and still believe Maul is just a weapon, you're being willfully ignorant, which isn't exactly an issue for me.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/?page=1#js-message-16188923

Besides, "just a weapon" has got to be the shittest excuse used against Maul ever. Being a warrior is pretty much the Wrath's only job, and it's a role highly idolised and respected in the Sith Order. Strengthening your connection to the Dark Side through conflict and combat, and making it your life's mission to kill the Jedi is Sith doctrine 101, but apparently Malgus, Ulic, Wrath, and every other Sith-Warrior type other than Maul escapes the label "weapon" or "assassin" because... reasons?

Srsly, making fun of a Sith for being good at one of the most important things Sith do is the equivalent of criticising an MMA fighter for only being good at fighting. It's illogical and arbitrary.

Ventress is a Dark Jedi who had scraped the surface of Sith training, Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith to have ever existed and was meant to be capable of carrying on the RoT. Sidious' Force Drain minions don't even register. Even if Maul isn't capable of those precise techniques, he's clearly of a higher calibre irregardless. Ergo, I don't find SWTOR saying what Force techniques a Sith Warrior archetype may be capable of overly compelling, especially in the absence of the Wrath not having shown anything with them. I'll give you brownie points for the part about histories though, since you seem kind of perturbed about this whole discussion. 👆

"can shape the Force to become nearly invulnerable" sounds like some awesome hyperbole bruh, so much better than surviving one of the worst injuries sustained by a Sith in the mythos, which was explicitly noted to be a monumental demonstration of Dark Side knowledge and power, even relative to Sidious's own knowing. It's almost like the source material is spelling it out for us or something.

🙂

Originally posted by ILS
Plenty of people who would massacre the Wrath have never shown Stasis, nor is it noted as being a particularly esoteric technique - hence why it pretty much just surfaces in RPG games. 🙄

Not really. I've proven in other threads that Maul was meant to be much more than a weapon, and TCW makes this abundantly clear as well. If you can read what I've linked below and still believe Maul is just a weapon, you're being willfully ignorant, which isn't exactly an issue for me.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/?page=1#js-message-16188923

Besides, "just a weapon" has got to be the shittest excuse used against Maul ever. A warrior is pretty much the Wrath's only job, and it's a role highly idolised and respected in the Sith Order. Strengthening your connection to the Dark Side through conflict and combat, and making it your life's mission to kill the Jedi is Sith doctrine 101, but apparently Malgus, Ulic, Wrath, and every other Sith-Warrior type other than Maul escapes the label "weapon" or "assassin" because... reasons?

Srsly, making fun of a Sith for being good at one of the most important things Sith do is the equivalent of criticising an MMA fighter for only being good at fighting. It's illogical and arbitrary.

Ventress is a Dark Jedi who had scraped the surface of Sith training, Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith to have ever existed and was meant to be capable of carrying on the RoT. Sidious' Force Drain minions don't even register. Even if Maul isn't capable of those precise techniques, he's clearly of a higher calibre irregardless. Ergo, I don't find SWTOR saying what Force techniques a Sith Warrior archetype may be capable of overly compelling, especially in the absence of the Wrath not having shown anything with them. I'll give you brownie points for the part about histories though, since you seem kind of perturbed about this whole discussion. 👆

"can shape the Force to become nearly invulnerable" sounds like some awesome hyperbole bruh, so much better than surviving one of the worst injuries sustained by a Sith in the mythos, which was explicitly noted to be a monumental demonstration of Dark Side knowledge and power, even relative to Sidious's own knowing. It's almost like the source material is spelling it out for us or something.

I.... don't care? We're not discussing who can beat whose ass, we're discussing force knowledge. Beni directly compared Maul to the Wrath in this regard and its evident he was wrong in his assessment. Stop getting so defensive. 🙄

It's not an issue for me either, since I don't care about Maul's competency in other area's. Combatively he was built into a living weapon and shows no evidence of higher, more esoteric Force abilities. Rant all you like, its still a fact that the Wrath does show more, better powers than Maul. There's no evidence Maul was trained in sorcery, drain, alchemy or other esoteric abilities. Sidious could have just not wished to dilute Maul's training by teaching him certain techniques. Or have just not gotten around to it. Or perhaps he just didn't have the talent in those areas. The reason doesn't matter, it won't change the fact that Maul hasn't displayed that he can do these things.

I didn't make fun of him at all, you added the "just" part yourself. Nice kneejerk reaction though. Definitely aren't insecure there. 👆

And yet Ventress has actually displayed these abilities whereas Maul...... has not. Perhaps Ventress just had talent in these area's that Maul lacked. I mean, doesn't she have some Nightsister training? Maul being highly trained doesn't mean jack diddly about what he was trained in, which is evidently mostly physical drills. Maul being more powerful and more versed in Sith Lore doesn't mean he can do everything lesser adepts can. Its fine for him to have just happened not to have been trained in certain things. I wouldn't suggest that the Wrath can perform sorcery and alchemy just because crappier Sith in the Empire can. He's versed in a different field. I'm not suggesting Maul is bad, despite how you seem to be reacting. I'm only responding to a specific thing.

I think its obvious that you're the one who's perturbed here, since you're the one who jumped in and started getting heated when I did nothing to offend you. You're the one skewing facts and reaching to make Maul look more impressive here.

I doubt its hyperbole since its' describing an actual power, and its mentioned at other points that the Wrath can use the Force to tank damage. It is better though. Since tanking injury is way better than not dying to injury. I'd rather not get hurt in the first place thanks. And like I said, Draagh displayed the same power and the Wrath still whooped his ass and is evidently better than him completely.

Wrath > Maul because stasis seems to be your current stance, yeah not convinced.

Nice strawman. My stance is merely that Maul isn't "more advanced" as you said, and that the Wrath is on par with him in that regard if not better. He also possesses drain, beast control and force fear. While the only power Maul seems to have over the Wrath is surviving bisection and machine reading. Yeah, not convinced.

My main grievance with your post, Neph, is that you're literally counting the number of different techniques as if that's the be-all and end-all of how valuable they are, or how well we can measure someone's Force knowledge. You even arbitrarily added in that we're not allowed to mention techniques that aren't "useful in combat" one minute and then in your next post retracting that by saying "We're not discussing who can beat whose ass, we're discussing force knowledge."

You're all over the place, and yeah, I do think you're kind of perturbed at the notion of someone comparing Maul to Wrath, given that you shit on Maul every two seconds. I'm here to dispute your sillier comments due to knowing quite a lot about the character, you're here to fanwank.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nice strawman. My stance is merely that Maul isn't "more advanced" as you said, and that the Wrath is on par with him in that regard if not better. He also possesses drain, beast control and force fear. While the only power Maul seems to have over the Wrath is surviving bisection and machine reading. Yeah, not convinced.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Rant all you like, its still a fact that the Wrath does show more, better powers than Maul.

Anyway, Maul fed off Kenobi's rage, draining his power, and sent a guy into a coma with a look. He has that shit. On the other hand I don't recall moment where the Wrath dulled the Force connection of a Jedi of Jinn or Kenobi's calibre, or negated Force lightning. But yeah, I reckon if you cut the Wrath in half he'd die, and never built a weapon as cool as Maul's, he'd probably need the GTN for that. 👆

Originally posted by ILS
My main grievance with your post, Neph, is that you're literally counting the number of different techniques as if that's the be-all and end-all of how valuable they are, or how well we can measure someone's Force knowledge. You even arbitrarily added in that we're not allowed to mention techniques that aren't "useful in combat" one minute and then in your next post retracting that by saying "We're not discussing who can beat whose ass, we're discussing force knowledge."

You're all over the place, and yeah, I do think you're kind of perturbed at the notion of someone comparing Maul to Wrath, given that you shit on Maul every two seconds. I'm here to dispute your sillier comments due to knowing quite a lot about the character, you're here to fanwank.

I was speaking in the context of Beni's statement of "I'd say he's particular impressive as Sith Warrior tbh, beyond his exceptional ability in TK, TP etc. he's evidently mastered a lot of techniques designed to make him more exceptional and effective in combat." Hence thats the angle I came into this at. And I didn't just mention how many techniques they know, though I do feel that the Wrath knowing several advanced abilities that Maul doesn't is relevant to a comparison, I also mentioned that the Wraths command of the Darkside was legendary.

I wasn't here to fanwank, I asked for why Beni thought as he did and gave him some info I wasn't sure he knew about. Then you butted in and made it an argument.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not really what you said here hon. #exposed 🙂

Anyway, Maul fed off Kenobi's rage, draining his power, and sent a guy into a coma with a look. He has that shit. On the other hand I don't recall moment where the Wrath dulled the Force connection of a Jedi of Jinn or Kenobi's calibre, or negated Force lightning. But yeah, I reckon if you cut the Wrath in half he'd die, and never built a weapon as cool as Maul's, he'd probably need the GTN for that. 👆

I don't see how that contradicts each other.

All Sith can feed on rage to some degree and sending some random noob into a coma isn't as good as overwhelming the mind of a Jedi. And lol, PoD reveals that its a basic part of combat to obscure an opponents precog like Maul did to Kenobi. Trainee Bane was doing that shit to Fohargh. And the Wrath can contain lightning in his blade and toss it back at opponents, he does it to Baras. Thats a step above getting your ass grilled by a random Nightsister.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how that contradicts each other.

All Sith can feed on rage to some degree and sending some random noob into a coma isn't as good as overwhelming the mind of a Jedi. And lol, PoD reveals that its a basic part of combat to obscure an opponents precog like Maul did to Kenobi. Trainee Bane was doing that shit to Fohargh. And the Wrath can contain lightning in his blade and toss it back at opponents, he does it to Baras. Thats a step above getting your ass grilled by a random Nightsister.

Right, he fed off Kenobi's rage, empowering homself in the process, I fail to see how that is different from the Wrath's ability to "drain the energy of their enemies to further strengthen their resolve" other than whatever false contexts you might try to construct.

And what Jedi? Exactly?

So Fohargh > Jinn now, I see. mmm

But nah, I'm more impressed by negating lightning through innate abilities than with a the aid of a conductor.