Originally posted by Pillow Biter
There are no hard and fast rules for what "counts" in comics. You have to take in everything and evaluate for each specific situation.Writer comments matter to me a lot. But no one thing is "definitive" in comics.
I completely agree with you and of course the source must be valid (official sources, writers words, interviews, officials handbooks, databooks, etc...)
Originally posted by Sin I AM
No you truly DO care.
You didn't understand properly.
I truly don't care if you like my claim or not.
The proof are here.
Look. I get it. You have a hard on for Sentry. He's all powerful to you and u will defend that position till you die.
So now instead of giving arguments, which you don't have, you think it's preferable to attack me directly ?
Interesting.
But you ARE trolling.
I'm not.
You didn't provide a single argument backed-up by anything in your own thread.
I wonder who's trolling at that point...
Repeating a point ad nauseum doesn't make you intellectually superior, it makes you an ass.
I'm repeating a valid point from a valid authority.
But please go on with the Ad Hominem, we see your true colors here.
ESPECIALLY given the fact that I asked in the OP not to include writer/editor etc statements just so we could avoid this little conversation we are having now.
Writer and editor words are valid sources.
They know better about the characters than everyone whom isn't an authority at Marvel so dismissing them is invalid.
There's a whole gamut (classy word there <😉 of reasons why we place certain characters in certain tiers. It's purely subjective but hyperbolic statements are generally cast aside.
That's cool.
I didn't use any "hyperbolic statements".
Oh and you pmed me btw and I pretty much summed up what I just said.
You asked me to provide proof in another thread before handwaving them.
If you are fine relying on willful ignorance why asking me for precisions in the first place ?
I only used Lucifer in jest and at this point I'm concluding your a either a sock or troll unless someone proves otherwise
Now it's a mix of unfounded accusations and Argumentum Ex Culo.
Interesting.
That shows that you never intended to debate in the first place and that you only want to stay with your pre-conceived opinion.
Good luck. 🙂
Even then, no hard and fast views on validity. But of course validity matters.
In the old DCU, there was tradition that even though Superman might outperform Captain Marvel versus others, when put in the same comic, they had to be physically identical: equally strong, fast, and tough. And fights would end in draws, unless there were extenuating circumstances.
But near the end of the old DCU, we started to see that consensus or tradition break down in the comics. And there was an animated JLU fight where Superman clearly beats Captain Marvel. That fight was not canon for the comics. Or even a valid source for the comics. Nevertheless, I still felt it shed some light on future comic fights because it demonstrated that the writer trend to always make them equals was breaking down.
Hulk and Thor had once been equals, though maybe not as firmly equal as Superman and Captain Marvel. But over time, Hulk was starting to pull ahead--it just made sense with his mythos. Hulk needs to be the baddest guy on the block when he flips out for the tragedy of the Hulk to really work. The fact that in the Ultimates and in the Avengers movie Hulk seemed to be more powerful than Thor shed light on what was happening in the mind of creators. And while not definitive evidence, they were things I'd consider in rating a Hulk vs. Thor fight in the regular Marvel U.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Even then, no hard and fast views on validity. But of course validity matters.In the old DCU, there was tradition that even though Superman might outperform Captain Marvel versus others, when put in the same comic, they had to be physically identical: equally strong, fast, and tough. And fights would end in draws, unless there were extenuating circumstances.
But near the end of the old DCU, we started to see that consensus or tradition break down in the comics. And there was an animated JLU fight where Superman clearly beats Captain Marvel. That fight was not canon for the comics. Or even a valid source for the comics. Nevertheless, I still felt it shed some light on future comic fights because it demonstrated that the writer trend to always make them equals was breaking down.
Hulk and Thor had once been equals, though maybe not as firmly equal as Superman and Captain Marvel. But over time, Hulk was starting to pull ahead--it just made sense with his mythos. Hulk needs to be the baddest guy on the block when he flips out for the tragedy of the Hulk to really work. The fact that in the Ultimates and in the Avengers movie Hulk seemed to be more powerful than Thor shed light on what was happening in the mind of creators. And while not definitive evidence, they were things I'd consider in rating a Hulk vs. Thor fight in the regular Marvel U.
also the voidhound turned captain marvels ass inside out while superman shrugged it off superman has always been ahead.
Originally posted by Digi
Debating Format[b]No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).
This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.
Comics released strictly online or on web sites will not be considered proof in the Comic Book Versus Forum.
An obscure interview given by someone involved in a story arc is not proof to refute feats. Neither is a random post by a supposed writer on a message board, blogs, tweets, etc. There have been too many of these so called interviews which go against what's shown on panel. Especially when there is no dialogue to refute what's happening on panel. Most writers are clear with the intentions of the plot and story arc.
This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed. [/B]
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
There are no hard and fast rules for what "counts" in comics. You have to take in everything and evaluate for each specific situation.Writer comments matter to me a lot. But no one thing is "definitive" in comics.
Writers comment matter? Odin Force Thor was compared to Odin and was said to be more powerful than Odin to a question to Pak and Pak still said Hulk would've defeated him.
http://old.brokenfrontier.com/columns/p/detail/a-visit-from-lopresti
Am I able to accept this as fact or does this only apply to Sentry.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
That shows that you never intended to debate in the first place and that you only want to stay with your pre-conceived opinion.
The problem is, there is no debating with you. Everytime you get backed into a corner or something, you post your infamous Jenkins tweet like its your 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card. Its great that Jenkins apparent view of the Sentry is of a character that is some all powerful being, but the problem is, the Sentry has never been written as such in any comic,,,,,even by Jenkins himself. Sentry's best feat is matching a mentally disturbed Molecule Man. When people think of a Molecule Man at his best, they think of a character that was casually snapping his fingers and repairing broken galaxies while holding a conversation. It was clear that Owen wasnt operating at that level during his encounter with Bob. To say anything differently would be asinine.
In short, the Sentry has never been depicted as being able to destroy galaxies or solar systems with mere thoughts. This is why nobody takes Jenkins words seriously. I'm one of the biggest Sentry fanboys on this site, but you make it tough to like and stand by the character with your continuous boasts and the same old Jenkins quote over and over again.
Originally posted by tkitnaYou are a die hard Sentry fan but you can be objective thats why i respect you 👆
The problem is, there is no debating with you. Everytime you get backed into a corner or something, you post your infamous Jenkins tweet like its your 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card. Its great that Jenkins apparent view of the Sentry is of a character that is some all powerful being, but the problem is, the Sentry has never been written as such in any comic,,,,,even by Jenkins himself. Sentry's best feat is matching a mentally disturbed Molecule Man. When people think of a Molecule Man at his best, they think of a character that was casually snapping his fingers and repairing broken galaxies while holding a conversation. It was clear that Owen wasnt operating at that level during his encounter with Bob. To say anything differently would be asinine.In short, the Sentry has never been depicted as being able to destroy galaxies or solar systems with mere thoughts. This is why nobody takes Jenkins words seriously. I'm one of the biggest Sentry fanboys on this site, but you make it tough to like and stand by the character with your continuous boasts and the same old Jenkins quote over and over again.
Originally posted by tkitna
The problem is, there is no debating with you. Everytime you get backed into a corner or something, you post your infamous Jenkins tweet like its your 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card. Its great that Jenkins apparent view of the Sentry is of a character that is some all powerful being, but the problem is, the Sentry has never been written as such in any comic,,,,,even by Jenkins himself. Sentry's best feat is matching a mentally disturbed Molecule Man. When people think of a Molecule Man at his best, they think of a character that was casually snapping his fingers and repairing broken galaxies while holding a conversation. It was clear that Owen wasnt operating at that level during his encounter with Bob. To say anything differently would be asinine.In short, the Sentry has never been depicted as being able to destroy galaxies or solar systems with mere thoughts. This is why nobody takes Jenkins words seriously. I'm one of the biggest Sentry fanboys on this site, but you make it tough to like and stand by the character with your continuous boasts and the same old Jenkins quote over and over again.
1) Jenkins wrote Sentry this way.
I think that you didn't get that Sentry wasn't part of the Marvel Universe, part of the life of every heroes... Before he rewrited the reality to part of all of that.
He changed the past and the reality without creating a new timeline...
2) Owen wasn't weakened or depowered.
I explained it many times on comic vine and in the thread about if Superman and Sentry switched their places...
You obviously didn't read it so:
Originally posted by RealityWarper
I explained it in this article that Owen had no negative beliefs on his abilities and therefore was at full power:You can notice that's only Owen's negative beliefs about his abilities that weakens his power. His mental state doesn't matter at all.
I can show you all marvel handbooks and datafiles refering to the fact that Owen's abilities are only weakened by his beliefs into them.
Tom Brevoort, the Marvel's Editor whom editor the Dark Reign story, confirmed that Owen wasn't weakened or depowered thus confirming that Owen was at his best:
Anyway Sentry's creator Paul Jenkins confirmed that Sentry is a reality warper far more powerful than Molecule Man and Beyonder.
Bendis whom was Sentry's main writer during ages said on his site that he used Sentry the same way that Jenkins did and he confirmed that Sentry has no limit to his power-level and that he has the ability to craft/ to form a reality at a molecular-level:
This naturally leads to the conclusion that there is no need for the writer to weaken Owen Reece as Sentry's power is limitless.
3) Owen explained many times that he used his powers to be left alone in his city. He didn't limit their scales, he just chosen not to use them on a larger scale which doesn't undermine his power-level.
4) Not taking the words an author about his creation is extremely silly.
We don't need to see the Sentry destroying the Universe to know that he can.
There is many proofs in the comics AND the author's words are all that matter as he chooses what his character can do.
It's fictional and the Argument from Incredulity is logically fallacious.
5) You must take in account that at those times I meant "Omniversal" and not "Multiversal". I wasn't on page with the exact definition.
Anyone who posts anything Tom Brevoort says should be banned by default.
That is that same person who thinks Spiderman is faster than the Silver Surfer, and who thought that Captain America being turned into a hydra agent was a good idea. Which immediately led to Marvel having to do damage control because of how bad it was.
Tom Brevoort literally does not read comic books anymore. He didn't even know that Molecule Man's abilities were restricted and could only influence things within the range of a city.
That data book ignores what happens in the comic book itself, and how weakened Molecule Man was when compared to himself in the past.
He was not restricting himself on purpose. He had lost control of his abilities at that point.
Originally posted by Sharivan
Anyone who posts anything Tom Brevoort says should be banned by default.
That is that same person who thinks Spiderman is faster than the Silver Surfer,
Brevoort was speaking about the abilities in combat.
It's not about travel speed...
and who thought that Captain America being turned into a hydra agent was a good idea.
To each his own.
That's a matter of taste.
Which immediately led to Marvel having to do damage control because of how bad it was.
It was unpopular, and ?
Tom Brevoort literally does not read comic books anymore.
Please prove that silly claim.
He didn't even know that Molecule Man's abilities were restricted and could only influence things within the range of a city.
They weren't restricted at all. He just chosen not to use them for the reasons I mentioned above.
I guess that it's easier to handwave everything, right ?
That data book ignores what happens in the comic book itself, and how weakened Molecule Man was when compared to himself in the past.
It doesn't ignore anything.
On the other hand you are relying on willful ignorance.
He was not restricting himself on purpose. He had lost control of his abilities at that point.
He chosen not to use his abilities outside of the city to avoid to attract the attention.
He said many times that he wanted to be left alone.
He never lost the control of his abilities.
Sentry is just far more powerful than him.
Wasn't it stated that Sentry's power level fluctuates based off his mental state? That means we can chalk low showings up to that. Also, at best Sentry showed no limit to his power. He overpowered someone who can easily dismantle Mjolnir or adamantium. He created a werewolf in his hand as a symbol of omnipotence. This backs the writer.
Originally posted by RealityWarper There is a context to understand behind everything.
Yes, and the context here is that Tom Brevoort does not know that Molecule Man was weakened.
Brevoort was speaking about the abilities in combat.
It's not about travel speed...
Are you seriously going to argue that Spiderman has better combat speed than the Silver Surfer?
That is freaking retarded.
To each his own.
That's a matter of taste.
This is not a matter of taste.
This is objectively bad. That's how bad it is.
You cannot argue that it is good.
It was unpopular, and ?
Due to the fact it was freaking idiotic, and a cash grab. As well as a series of moves to shift the topic from comic books to SJW pornography.
Please prove that silly claim.
Besides the fact Tom Brevoort doesn't know any of the context of the comic books he supposedly reads?
Just look at that hipster. He even has a freaking fedora.
The best part is that Tom Brevoort ignores his own stance regarding transitive properties. Not only does he say that Spiderman is faster than the Silver Surfer because of instances where Spiderman has the upper hand against Silver Surfer?
He does the same thing here.
He ignores his own stance regarding transitive properties, and says that the Sentry is more powerful because he defeated a weakened Molecule Man.
He is a hypocrite and a liar, and only adheres to his judgment regarding transitive properties when he is not talking about something he has a bias for.
They weren't restricted at all. He just chosen not to use them for the reasons I mentioned above.
No, Molecule Man did not and you have yet to prove that within the story itself instead of relying on databooks that constantly contradict themselves.
I guess that it's easier to handwave everything, right ?
That is what you're doing right now. You are building a false narrative that is not supported by what actually happens.
It doesn't ignore anything.
On the other hand you are relying on willful ignorance.
This isn't willful ignorance. I am not the one ignoring that Molecule Man is nowhere near as powerful as he should be when this happens.
That's you, and that's Tom Brevoort even in regards to his own stances. There is no consistency.
He chosen not to use his abilities outside of the city to avoid to attract the attention.
Citation needed.
I have a feeling that you're going to grab a scan, and then proceed to purposely misinterpret its context.
He said many times that he wanted to be left alone.
How in the world does this translate to Molecule Man holding himself back on purpose? You're taking something he said out of context, and taking your own personal opinion of what it means as objective fact.
He never lost the control of his abilities.
Yes, Molecule Man did. He was going crazy.
He wanted to be found, and he wanted to be stopped. This is made explicity clear when his own abilities were acting against him, and noting just that.
Sentry is just far more powerful than him.
By Tom Brevoort's own stance regarding transitive properties we wouldn't be able to use Sentry's fight with Molecule Man.
We would only be able to use their individual feats that do not involve their showings over others.
Yet, Tom Brevoort drops this stance at a moment's notice.