What Xmen can compete with the Kryptonians in physicals?
What non Juggernaut/Gladiator Xmen bricks can actually compete with the likes of Zod, Faora, Nam-Ek and other non Superman-family Kryptonians in pure H2H combat? I was thinking of this thread when Colossus fought Gladiator (who seems to be a Superman knockoff) in the Dark Phoenix saga
*Conditions
-No flight for the Kryptonians
*Pure H2H combat
Originally posted by leonidas
in h2h?? no x-men can compete with a kryptonian in h2h. no one can come close.and the whole plank length is nonsensical and certainly doesn't translate to nate being faster than a kryptonian....
It's not nonsensical.
The Planck length is not technobabble. It's something that actually exists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time
In terms of scale it is the smallest measurement of time. Nate Grey and Ares fought between those moments.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_time
Here is another reference.
It's the same as Zoom from DC. It's superspeed through time manipulation.
Endless Mike of both KMC and the OBD already calculated it too.
http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/ares-vs-x-man.17878/
Originally posted by Sharivan
It's not nonsensical.The Planck length is not technobabble. It's something that actually exists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time
In terms of scale it is the smallest measurement of time. Nate Grey and Ares fought between those moments.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_time
Here is another reference.
It's the same as Zoom from DC. It's superspeed through time manipulation.
Endless Mike of both KMC and the OBD already calculated it too.
http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/ares-vs-x-man.17878/
it really is completely nonsensical. you're right, it is a unit of time, (among other things) NOT speed and is based purely on the length of time a photon takes to cover a set distance (a plank length). iow, it is based entirely on the speed of light, something a kryptionian can easily break. now, if you want to argue that nate can THINK flt and therefore enter his own personal timeframe, i could entertain that. there is however no proof that nate is capable in anyway at all of fighting someone OUTSIDE his personal timeframe--again, iow there is no proof at all that being able to enter his own timeframe equates to his being able to battle at super speed in anyway, unlike zoom who does exactly that. the only thing that we DO know is that it heightened his perceptions. he would still need to enter said timeframe and to do that he'd need to think ftl. using his powers this way also, clearly, goes against the general purpose of the thread.
anyway it's been debated a couple times:
Originally posted by leonidas
iow, it is based entirely on the speed of light, something a kryptionian can easily break.
Depends on the version of Kryptonians you are using. PC Superman could easily break lightspeed. Post crisis Superman could not do so. In fact there is an entire comic dedicated to Flash training him to better utilize his speed and at the end he does go lightspeed(the comic specifically clocks his speeds) but it's not something he does easily. Though he can easily attain such speeds if he's flying in space yes.
Perhaps you meant Nu52 Kryptonians, I'm not sure how fast Nu Superman is these days.
Originally posted by leonidas
it really is completely nonsensical. you're right, it is a unit of time, (among other things) NOT speed and is based purely on the length of time a photon takes to cover a set distance (a plank length). iow, it is based entirely on the speed of light, something a kryptionian can easily break. now, if you want to argue that nate can THINK flt and therefore enter his own personal timeframe, i could entertain that. there is however no proof that nate is capable in anyway at all of fighting someone OUTSIDE his personal timeframe--again, iow there is no proof at all that being able to enter his own timeframe equates to his being able to battle at super speed in anyway, unlike zoom who does exactly that. the only thing that we DO know is that it heightened his perceptions. he would still need to enter said timeframe and to do that he'd need to think ftl. using his powers this way also, clearly, goes against the general purpose of the thread.anyway it's been debated a couple times:
It is not nonsensical.
As made evident by everyone who disagrees with you in those threads.
Galan007 himself making a very convincing argument against you.
Originally posted by Galan007
Technically, Nate has the ability to fight just as fast as(if not faster than) Zoom:
"The combat takes place out of time, in the 'Planck Length' between moments."Tack that onto him wielding some of the most formidable mind-phuckery abilities in Marvel, and I'm curious how this isn't a one-sided stomp in his favor?
[edit]
Bran ninjas yet again!
Originally posted by Galan007
Zoom exists outside of time and locked between the ticks of a second(as he put it.)Nate and Ares' battle also took place "out of time" and "between moments":
...Which is why I think Nate can technically be on Zoom's level-- and with their speed/perceptions/etc. equalized, Zoom has no defense against Nate's TP.
Originally posted by Galan007
We both know that Nate can think AND process information extremely fast, to say the least. So unless Zoom delivers Superman-level punches right out of the gate, Nate would almost certainly be able to weather the initial blitz long enough preform some sort of counterattack, imo.Aside from the Planck time thingy, another easy option for Nate would be shielding--Zoom isn't breaching that even with Superman-level punches--in conjunction with mindphuckery. So yeah, even IF Nate didn't shift into his "haven"(I like that term for it), he should still be able to win.
As well as Id who described it just as I did. Something that's a lot like what Zoom does. Who has read every Nate Grey appearance.
It is based on the miniscule time it would take light to travel the Planck length. Which is incredibly tiny itself, and as Endless Mike noted with the distance Nate Grey and Ares moved within this time?
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I was originally trying to scale the total distance they moved during this fight, but that proved to be a bit of a pain, so I figured I could just do what Thanatoseraph did in his Zimmerman's Valley calc. This has qualifying marathon speed at 3.8889 m/s. (Of course this is a huge lowball, since both Nate and Ares are far above peak human physical speed).The subjective time passed during this fight, keeping that lowball speed in mind, I think shouldn't have been any less than 10 seconds. (It would realistically be longer if you took into account Nate's speech before Ares arrived, but talking is a free action, whatever, and I'm being conservative here). 3.8889 m/s in 10 seconds = 38.889 meters.
This all took place in less than a planck instant, which is equal to 5.39106e-44 seconds. This translates to a speed of 7.213609197e44 m/s, or 2,406,201,025,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000c.
Gold Saints, eat your hearts out :maybe
That's 2,406,201,025,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times the speed of light.
Originally posted by Surtur
Depends on the version of Kryptonians you are using. PC Superman could easily break lightspeed. Post crisis Superman could not do so. In fact there is an entire comic dedicated to Flash training him to better utilize his speed and at the end he does go lightspeed(the comic specifically clocks his speeds) but it's not something he does easily. Though he can easily attain such speeds if he's flying in space yes.Perhaps you meant Nu52 Kryptonians, I'm not sure how fast Nu Superman is these days.
I can't remember a single instance of Superman (outside of space flight) being clocked at light speed. Do you have scans of that.
As for New 52 we have Superman being able to act quickly enough that he could fly from Pluto and Earth in the span of a quick conversation. Stopping only at Red Hood, and keeping himself from crashing into him.
He also has at least somewhat comparable reflexes in regards to the Flash. Who can act within femtoseconds. So, something like quadrillions of times the speed of light at least.
Which is why I don't know if Nate Grey could do anything. Even if he was faster..I don't know if he can amp his physical stats with his psionic powers. Or if he can do that I do not know to what levels he can amp to.
Legion was also mentioned, I suppose it's possible since he has a bunch of powers so he might of shown the necessary stats.
