Originally posted by leonidas
begrudgingly...lol
Yes, and that's only because of how stubborn people are.
so, changing history=super speed? 👆
No, they're changing history because they're moving so fast that they're transversing the nearby timelines.
I already clarified this.
my fave part of this whole thing is the fact that you think the book disagrees with ME.
That's because it does, and you have provided no convincing counter evidence. The scene itself notes that they're operating in Planck time.
lol ares specifically says nate is HIDING in time (not moving through it as zoom does).
Yes, and it's clarified what that means later in the fight. This is in Planck time, as noted by the story itself.
It's no different than moving so fast that you can't be seen normally. That's what "hide" means here.
the author specifically cites PLANK LENGTH, and in no way at all implies nate has super speed
Yes it does because as I already brought up length is being used to refer to time. You are refusing to use your reading comprehension by doing this.
It's not a word that has one definition, and if it was actually distance then that would change the entire scene.
It would instead be about shrinking instead of moving throughout time. Which would make no sense at all.
(ARES caught him ffs lol) yet you "for no good reason" want to extrapolate a speed feat by forcing your own definition on a scientific term.
It's not my own definition. It's how Planck length is being used here going by the context. It makes no sense for them to be talking about distance instead time.
How does the phrase even make sense then? If it is what you you think it is it wouldn't be "between moments" it would be "between microscopic particles" or something.
plank length is a specific unit scientifically defined as DISTANCE,
As I already explained length can be used to refer to time, and it's clearly being used as time here. So, what is actually being said as extrapolated on by the context is TIME.
It makes no sense within the story itself if you say otherwise.
but YOU are arguing author intent and claim "length must mean time!" because "nothing else would make sense!!1!"
I am not arguing author intent. I am simply treating Planck length the same way as it's being treated by the context.
Which you are ignoring.
You're the one trying to say it's referring to distance when the scene itself notes time.
and you may even be right about his intent.
As I said before I am not arguing his intent. The story itself treats Planck length as if it's referring to time.
It is in no way treating it as distance. If the scene was it would be completely different. There would be no "between moments" or even any time manipulation at all. When we clearly see that there is.
It would be about shrinking instead.
doesn't change the fact that is a misuse of the actual term by the author which is what i've said all along, so concession accepted. 🙂
It's not a misuse of a term. You can use length in reference to TIME, and it's clearly referring to time here.
The only way this make sense is if you ignore the entire scene, and pretend something completely different happened.
hell, you even go so far as arbitrarily assigning an amount of time to his time spent within his own time frame when the book also specifically says the fight took place OUT OF TIME.
Which only works if it did not clarify that it was happening in the Planck length between moments. Which it explicity does word-for-word the very same time that this is said. You're cutting out part of the context, and are relying on a confirmation bias by ignoring everything else.
and THEN you try and use TIME to assign some ridiculous notion of speed? brilliant. not nonsensical at all. 👆
That's because this clearly involves some sort of time manipulation, and it's impossible to argue otherwise without ignoring the vast majority of the scene.
As it's already bee clarified when it says out of time? It is referring to the Planck length between moments.
but the book disagrees with me. 😐
Yes, it does.
I am glad we have that settled. Your concession is accepted.
as far as zoom--nate did absolutely nothing that would indicate he could replicate what zoom has done.
Well, besides the fact Nate was able to fight Ares within the Planck length between moments. That this clearly involves time manipulation, and arguing otherwise requires ignoring the entire scene.
or flash. or superman. nothing. he never even showed super speed relative to anyone because he never interacted with them.
I already rebuked this.
Nate and Ares interact with Karla's timeline, and change history. They are able to interact with each other. Then there's the fact Nate could drag Mimic in and out of it.
altering the past doesn't equate to being able to fight superman at super speed levels.
The reason they were altering the past to begin was be a use how fast they were moving by moving within Planck time.
it just requires access to the past.
No, once again you're ignoring everything else within the scene and how their battle has a ripple effect. They're not actually going to the past or future. They are influencing in the present as a side effect of how fast they're moving by operating in Planck time.
nate dragged mimic into his hidey hole along with him, and pushed him out of it. so?
It proves that Nate can interact with others whilst he is operating at these speeds. It's the same with Ares.
anyone able to stop time can do the same thing.
This is not stopped time. If it was Ares wouldn't have been able to chase after Nate if that was the case.
It wouldn't specify that they're moving between moments, and it wouldn't specify that they're infleucning all of the timelines around.
This is not a simple time-stop. Saying that it is would be completely dishonest.
to match zoom's timeframe one needs to ACCELERATE, use speed to match it.
Do you even know what acceleration is? It's how quickly you can reach a certain speed. Which both Nate and Ares can do so easily as evident by the fact that they can reach these speeds on the spot as if flipping on a switch.
ares just smashed his way in.
That makes no sense whatsoever. You can't chase after someone who is operating in Planck time by being strong.
why? because nate was hiding and ares found him (inexplicably...).
The method by which Nate has hidden himself here was by operating within Planck time. You can't see someone moving that fast.
Ares was, and then began operating in Planck time.
Just like Nate.
nate wasn't moving through time like zoom does (ie--he was not using super speed).
Nate and Ares both were, and as a result timelines near them were changing in order to reflect that.
unless of course you mean ares used his super speed to match nate's speed?
No, I am saying Ares has temporal speed not just normal super-speed. This is something that has to be activated just as you would flip a switch.
because ares' well established speed history would support him travelling billions of times faster than light?
As I noted this is something that has to be activated, and the fact Ares doesn't use it more often is merely a sign of his stupidity.
you can't show nate using this "speed" in any traditional way and by that i mean in the every day way flash or superman or zoom use speed.
What are you even talking about? You mean by making afterimages or by being a blur? Nate was moving so fast that only Ares was able to notice. There's moving so fast he can't been seen already.
Afterimages are not even quantifiable, and are for the most part entirely stylistic.
that whole long post was helpful though
You're complaining about my so called long post when you have some of the most disgustingly disorganized text walls on the forum?
Seriously, they're basically text bricks and you don't even bother to address individual points.
you made it clear to me that there IS a difference between how he and zoom operatewhile both create their own timeframe, one sits and hides amongst time while the other moves through time at a rate he himself decides. 👆
It is being made explicity clear that they both do this. Nate and Ares are even deciding to move in the Planck length between moments. They're deciding the speed at which they operate at, and now you're being willfully ignorant to support a phrase taken out of context.
Which by the way confirms that "out of time" is the "Planck length between moments."
btw--how do you explain the fact that when mimic was expelled, he was grasping nate's limp body?
What does that have to do with anything? This was after Nate dragged Mimic out of it, and after Nate got beat up by Ares.
He was also feigning defeat in order to destroy his construct body, and possess Norman Osborn.
ps--sorry folks, i know this is off-topic but it's too fun to leave alone.
"Fun."
Yeah, right.
Chances are you're just going to continue until I concede out of sheer boredom. Since you haven't brought up anything I haven't already taken apart.
I don't particularly care for circular debates. This forum has enough of that with abhilegend.
