What Xmen can compete with the Kryptonians in physicals?

Originally posted by Sharivan
It is not nonsensical.

As made evident by everyone who disagrees with you in those threads.

Galan007 himself making a very convincing argument against you.

As well as Id who described it just as I did. Something that's a lot like what Zoom does. Who has read every Nate Grey appearance.

It is based on the miniscule time it would take light to travel the Planck length. Which is incredibly tiny itself, and as Endless Mike noted with the distance Nate Grey and Ares moved within this time?

[QUOTE=Endless Mike]I was originally trying to scale the total distance they moved during this fight, but that proved to be a bit of a pain, so I figured I could just do what Thanatoseraph did in his Zimmerman's Valley calc. This has qualifying marathon speed at 3.8889 m/s. (Of course this is a huge lowball, since both Nate and Ares are far above peak human physical speed).

The subjective time passed during this fight, keeping that lowball speed in mind, I think shouldn't have been any less than 10 seconds. (It would realistically be longer if you took into account Nate's speech before Ares arrived, but talking is a free action, whatever, and I'm being conservative here). 3.8889 m/s in 10 seconds = 38.889 meters.

This all took place in less than a planck instant, which is equal to 5.39106e-44 seconds. This translates to a speed of 7.213609197e44 m/s, or 2,406,201,025,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000c.

Gold Saints, eat your hearts out :maybe

That's 2,406,201,025,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times the speed of light. [/QUOTE]

lol id changed his argument and galan admitted zoom would get in the first hit.

anyway, i also said what nate did and what zoom does seem to be similar, with the notable exceptions that zoom lives within his timeframe and can actually affect the outside world, while nate has to first actively enter his time bubble/haven/whatever and then has given no proof of being able to do anything more than OBSERVE from it or act directly WITHIN it. he gave no indication he could affect the world outside his timeframe--certainly no indication said power would translate to macroworld super speed.... unless you have such proof....? any scans of nate operating in the real world at....whatever multiple of c you're friend calculated?

nate used time as a hidey hole from which to spy from and it granted him some cool, exotic perceptual abilities. given that plank time is determined by universal constants, however, even if nate did somehow gain access to his timeframe before kal or whoever ko'd him, there is no reason at all to suggest that someone capable of traveling>c couldn't easily find him.

plank time is an almost inconceivably small amount of time. that's all it is. and nate hid within it. even THAT makes no sense if you think about it. any 'instant' he hid in, essentially stopped, would be inconceivably small. hell, it's not even the best time feat nate has accomplished. stopping time>entering between any seconds.

none of the rationalizing you and others are trying to do means anything though. the writer misused the term. simple as that--or willing traded correctness for the coolness of the term. force-fitting the feat to translate to superman or flash-style super speed is ridiculous and completely lacking support. plank length (the actual term used in the book) is a DISTANCE, not a length of time and certainly not a measure of speed. that much is axiomatic.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Does proteus count? Cant remember if he joined the team or not

Originally posted by Surtur
Which is why I don't know if Nate Grey could do anything. Even if he was faster..I don't know if he can amp his physical stats with his psionic powers. Or if he can do that I do not know to what levels he can amp to.

Legion was also mentioned, I suppose it's possible since he has a bunch of powers so he might of shown the necessary stats.

the OP said BRICKS. 😐

and nate once amped himself to the point where he contended briefly with hulk. how long that would have lasted is anyone's guess.

Yeah in terms of actual bricks no X-men members other than Juggernaut can really match Kryptonians.

I mean, in theory Gentle might be able to hang for a little bit, seeing as his strength transformation was so extreme he needed the vibranium paint tattoos to stop him from destroying himself. But even then he can't last for long because he can't use his powers for long.

Originally posted by Surtur

If you're wondering why he suddenly seems surprised it's because by going this fast he accidentally stumbles into some..weird other dimension.

Does anyone have the issue number for this? Also accelerated speed. Never said that he or any other Herald couldn't accelerate to those levels.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol id changed his argument and galan admitted zoom would get in the first hit.

Id didn't change his argument. The link you provided me with had him say it was even more impressive than what Zoom does, and is beyond what speed is even capable of making it irrelevant.

Id is claiming that it is even greater than what I am claiming it is. That it cannot be matched by any kind of quantifiable speed.

Galan only begrudgingly admitted Zoom would get the first hit in, and neither agreed with you that it was not some sort of temporal speed. They still think it's what Zoom does or some equivalent.

The only difference is that Nate Grey has to turn it on or off.

anyway, i also said what nate did and what zoom does seem to be similar, with the notable exceptions that zoom lives within his timeframe and can actually affect the outside world, while nate has to first actively enter his time bubble/haven/whatever and then has given no proof of being able to do anything more than OBSERVE from it or act directly WITHIN it.

Not true both Ares and Nate Grey were changing history when they fought within it, and even altering the cosmology with the creation of new constellations foretelling their battle.

Ares wasn't even inside of it at first either.

He chased after Nate, and entered the Planck length between moments.

he gave no indication he could affect the world outside his timeframe

No, they both could. They were changing history as they fought, and Ares could chase right after Nate when he was in it.

certainly no indication said power would translate to macroworld super speed.... unless you have such proof....?
any scans of nate operating in the real world at....whatever multiple of c you're friend calculated?

The fight itself notes that Nate and Ares changed history as a result of their fight, and Nate could drag Mimic in there with him.

http://i.imgur.com/Czgpf.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2ep5zqa.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/rwnegw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r7BcF.jpg

Nate could also force Mimic back to normal time, and his fight with Ares erased part of Karla's past from existence.

He is able to interact with people all across their timelines.

nate used time as a hidey hole from which to spy from and it granted him some cool, exotic perceptual abilities.

Nate Grey used time manipulation to move between the Planck length between moments, and that is clearly similiar in regards to what Zoom does.

He wasn't completely hidden either. Ares was able to notice Nate when he was moving that fast, and chased after him in the Planck length between moments.

given that plank time is determined by universal constants, however, even if nate did somehow gain access to his timeframe before kal or whoever ko'd him, there is no reason at all to suggest that someone capable of traveling>c couldn't easily find him.

Nate Grey isn't just accessing his own timeline. He is accessing the timelines of everyone around him.

You would need something actually comparable to what Nate accomplished. Which means you need an instance where Superman acted within Planck time.

Which to my knowledge Kal-El has no instances of.

plank time is an almost inconceivably small amount of time. that's all it is.

Yes, and distance divided by time equals speed. Nate and Ares were actually moving in this timeframe which gives us the kind of speed they have access to.

As noted by Endless Mike.

and nate hid within it.

That's because Nate is moving so fast at that point no one can detect him. The only exception being Ares who found him, and then chased after him.

even THAT makes no sense if you think about it.

No, it makes complete sense once you understand the concepts behind this. It's not rocket science. You get speed out of distance and time.

any 'instant' he hid in, essentially stopped, would be inconceivably small.

It is not stopped.

Nate and Ares were manipulating time in such a way that they were able to operate in the Planck length between moments.

hell, it's not even the best time feat nate has accomplished. stopping time>entering between any seconds

Which is something completely different than what Nate is doing here. This is temporal induced superspeed.

It's not a time-stop.

As evident by the fact Ares could chase after him.

one of the rationalizing you and others are trying to do means anything though.

Yes, it does.

As it has been explained to you several times but you have consistently tried to dismiss it for no good reason.

the writer misused the term

You're arguing author intent, and assuming they used it wrong with no evidence to back up your opinion.

simple as that

No, it's not as simple as that.

or willing traded correctness for the coolness of the term.

You're arguing author intent here as well. When it's clear what is being said in the comic book itself.

force-fitting the feat to translate to superman or flash-style super speed is ridiculous and completely lacking support.

That's what you're doing right now. You have nothing backing your claims, and the comic book itself disagrees with you.

This is time-manipulation induced superspeed so you can't argue they're not moving super fast because of any lack of collateral damage. It's clear that they're moving between moments in time, and influencing nearby timelines in their fight. Then there's the fact Nate Grey can forcibly drag people in and out of it

plank length (the actual term used in the book) is a DISTANCE, not a length of time and certainly not a measure of speed. that much is axiomatic.

You do know that length can be used to refer to both time AND distance, right?

"The length of a day."

"The length of that bastard's vacation."

"The length of that man's suffering."

"The length of this incredible pornographic video."

By the context, and the fact "between moments" is being mentioned, it's clear that length is being used as TIME not DISTANCE here.

Anything else wouldn't make sense.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Id didn't change his argument. The link you provided me with had him say it was even more impressive than what Zoom does, and is beyond what speed is even capable of making it irrelevant.

Id is claiming that it is even greater than what I am claiming it is. That it cannot be matched by any kind of quantifiable speed.

Galan only begrudgingly admitted Zoom would get the first hit in, and neither agreed with you that it was not some sort of temporal speed. They still think it's what Zoom does or some equivalent.

The only difference is that Nate Grey has to turn it on or off.

Not true both Ares and Nate Grey were changing history when they fought within it, and even altering the cosmology with the creation of new constellations foretelling their battle.

Ares wasn't even inside of it at first either.

He chased after Nate, and entered the Planck length between moments.

No, they both could. They were changing history as they fought, and Ares could chase right after Nate when he was in it.

The fight itself notes that Nate and Ares changed history as a result of their fight, and Nate could drag Mimic in there with him.

http://i.imgur.com/Czgpf.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2ep5zqa.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/rwnegw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r7BcF.jpg

Nate could also force Mimic back to normal time, and his fight with Ares erased part of Karla's past from existence.

He is able to interact with people all across their timelines.

Nate Grey used time manipulation to move between the Planck length between moments, and that is clearly similiar in regards to what Zoom does.

He wasn't completely hidden either. Ares was able to notice Nate when he was moving that fast, and chased after him in the Planck length between moments.

Nate Grey isn't just accessing his own timeline. He is accessing the timelines of everyone around him.

You would need something actually comparable to what Nate accomplished. Which means you need an instance where Superman acted within Planck time.

Which to my knowledge Kal-El has no instances of.

Yes, and distance divided by time equals speed. Nate and Ares were actually moving in this timeframe which gives us the kind of speed they have access to.

As noted by Endless Mike.

That's because Nate is moving so fast at that point no one can detect him. The only exception being Ares who found him, and then chased after him.

No, it makes complete sense once you understand the concepts behind this. It's not rocket science. You get speed out of distance and time.

It is not stopped.

Nate and Ares were manipulating time in such a way that they were able to operate in the Planck length between moments.

Which is something completely different than what Nate is doing here. This is temporal induced superspeed.

It's not a time-stop.

As evident by the fact Ares could chase after him.

Yes, it does.

As it has been explained to you several times but you have consistently tried to dismiss it for no good reason.

You're arguing author intent, and assuming they used it wrong with no evidence to back up your opinion.

No, it's not as simple as that.

You're arguing author intent here as well. When it's clear what is being said in the comic book itself.

That's what you're doing right now. You have nothing backing your claims, and the comic book itself disagrees with you.

This is time-manipulation induced superspeed so you can't argue they're not moving super fast because of any lack of collateral damage. It's clear that they're moving between moments in time, and influencing nearby timelines in their fight. Then there's the fact Nate Grey can forcibly drag people in and out of it

You do know that length can be used to refer to both time AND distance, right?

"The length of a day."

"The length of that bastard's vacation."

"The length of that man's suffering."

"The length of this incredible pornographic video."

By the context, and the fact "between moments" is being mentioned, it's clear that length is being used as TIME not DISTANCE here.

Anything else wouldn't make sense.

Originally posted by Sharivan
It's not nonsensical.

The Planck length is not technobabble. It's something that actually exists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time

In terms of scale it is the smallest measurement of time. Nate Grey and Ares fought between those moments.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_time

Here is another reference.

It's the same as Zoom from DC. It's superspeed through time manipulation.

Endless Mike of both KMC and the OBD already calculated it too.

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/ares-vs-x-man.17878/

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17154140/Dark_X-Men_03_0016.jpg.html

How did they enter Karla Sofen's history and she lost a memory?

They are moving through the time stream. Not exactly a speed feat.

Guys I really don't have a dog in this fight but I'd just like to remind everyone that this isn't a question regarding whether an x-men character could beat superman, it's a question of whether they can beat zod, non, faora or any other non superman family kryptonian. So someone should list some feats for them.

Also, what happened to namor? Why did nobody list him?

Closest thing to a superman clone the X-Man have to offer is Gabriel Sheperd.

Originally posted by carver9
Does anyone have the issue number for this? Also accelerated speed. Never said that he or any other Herald couldn't accelerate to those levels.

Even after all these yrs and countless pics, you're still asking the same dumb questions?

What absolute nonsense. No xman can fight Superman, aside from probably Meggan, but there are plenty who could make it to the other kryptonian's wildly inconsistent levels.

Meggan would have no problem physically dealing with a Kryptonian as her strength is relative to the opponent she's fighting.

Apocalypse has trumped both Thor and Hulk in strengh, which should be more than enough to put him on equal terms with a non-superman kryptonian.

Strong guy could take SEVERAL blows from WWH and return those hits, and without the heart-condition (which he hasn't had in ages) and no speed advantage to them I'd say he could do just fine.

Iceman could build up enough physical strength to easily take out the collective man, who in turn in strong enough to dent US Agent's shield, wipe the floor with sasquatch.

Nate Grey could stack his psychic armour on top of his shaman form, which already has considerable superstrength. The suit is such that it lets his non-shaman form physically fight Holocaust and Hulk.

Was legions super strength personality ever that powerful?

None can match. With those speed, durability, and strength levels.

Right, OP said no flight.

I thought he said no speed.

I still think Nate, Apoc and Meggan would manage.

Are they bricks, though? Apoc can do...well, whatever, lol. Meggan is pretty versatile. And lets not get started on Nate...

What about namor? He has some of the best showings against herald level characters for any brick.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Id didn't change his argument. The link you provided me with had him say it was even more impressive than what Zoom does, and is beyond what speed is even capable of making it irrelevant.

Id is claiming that it is even greater than what I am claiming it is. That it cannot be matched by any kind of quantifiable speed.

Galan only begrudgingly admitted Zoom would get the first hit in, and neither agreed with you that it was not some sort of temporal speed. They still think it's what Zoom does or some equivalent.

The only difference is that Nate Grey has to turn it on or off.

Not true both Ares and Nate Grey were changing history when they fought within it, and even altering the cosmology with the creation of new constellations foretelling their battle.

Ares wasn't even inside of it at first either.

He chased after Nate, and entered the Planck length between moments.

No, they both could. They were changing history as they fought, and Ares could chase right after Nate when he was in it.

The fight itself notes that Nate and Ares changed history as a result of their fight, and Nate could drag Mimic in there with him.

http://i.imgur.com/Czgpf.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2ep5zqa.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/rwnegw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r7BcF.jpg

Nate could also force Mimic back to normal time, and his fight with Ares erased part of Karla's past from existence.

He is able to interact with people all across their timelines.

Nate Grey used time manipulation to move between the Planck length between moments, and that is clearly similiar in regards to what Zoom does.

He wasn't completely hidden either. Ares was able to notice Nate when he was moving that fast, and chased after him in the Planck length between moments.

Nate Grey isn't just accessing his own timeline. He is accessing the timelines of everyone around him.

You would need something actually comparable to what Nate accomplished. Which means you need an instance where Superman acted within Planck time.

Which to my knowledge Kal-El has no instances of.

Yes, and distance divided by time equals speed. Nate and Ares were actually moving in this timeframe which gives us the kind of speed they have access to.

As noted by Endless Mike.

That's because Nate is moving so fast at that point no one can detect him. The only exception being Ares who found him, and then chased after him.

No, it makes complete sense once you understand the concepts behind this. It's not rocket science. You get speed out of distance and time.

It is not stopped.

Nate and Ares were manipulating time in such a way that they were able to operate in the Planck length between moments.

Which is something completely different than what Nate is doing here. This is temporal induced superspeed.

It's not a time-stop.

As evident by the fact Ares could chase after him.

Yes, it does.

As it has been explained to you several times but you have consistently tried to dismiss it for no good reason.

You're arguing author intent, and assuming they used it wrong with no evidence to back up your opinion.

No, it's not as simple as that.

You're arguing author intent here as well. When it's clear what is being said in the comic book itself.

That's what you're doing right now. You have nothing backing your claims, and the comic book itself disagrees with you.

This is time-manipulation induced superspeed so you can't argue they're not moving super fast because of any lack of collateral damage. It's clear that they're moving between moments in time, and influencing nearby timelines in their fight. Then there's the fact Nate Grey can forcibly drag people in and out of it

You do know that length can be used to refer to both time AND distance, right?

"The length of a day."

"The length of that bastard's vacation."

"The length of that man's suffering."

"The length of this incredible pornographic video."

By the context, and the fact "between moments" is being mentioned, it's clear that length is being used as TIME not DISTANCE here.

Anything else wouldn't make sense.

begrudgingly...lol

so, changing history=super speed? 👆

my fave part of this whole thing is the fact that you think the book disagrees with ME. lol ares specifically says nate is HIDING in time (not moving through it as zoom does). the author specifically cites PLANK LENGTH, and in no way at all implies nate has super speed (ARES caught him ffs lol) yet you "for no good reason" want to extrapolate a speed feat by forcing your own definition on a scientific term. plank length is a specific unit scientifically defined as DISTANCE, but YOU are arguing author intent and claim "length must mean time!" because "nothing else would make sense!!1!" and you may even be right about his intent. doesn't change the fact that is a misuse of the actual term by the author which is what i've said all along, so concession accepted. 🙂

hell, you even go so far as arbitrarily assigning an amount of time to his time spent within his own time frame when the book also specifically says the fight took place OUT OF TIME. and THEN you try and use TIME to assign some ridiculous notion of speed? brilliant. not nonsensical at all. 👆

but the book disagrees with me. 😐

as far as zoom--nate did absolutely nothing that would indicate he could replicate what zoom has done. or flash. or superman. nothing. he never even showed super speed relative to anyone because he never interacted with them. altering the past doesn't equate to being able to fight superman at super speed levels. it just requires access to the past. nate dragged mimic into his hidey hole along with him, and pushed him out of it. so? anyone able to stop time can do the same thing. to match zoom's timeframe one needs to ACCELERATE, use speed to match it. ares just smashed his way in. why? because nate was hiding and ares found him (inexplicably...). nate wasn't moving through time like zoom does (ie--he was not using super speed). unless of course you mean ares used his super speed to match nate's speed? because ares' well established speed history would support him travelling billions of times faster than light?

you can't show nate using this "speed" in any traditional way and by that i mean in the every day way flash or superman or zoom use speed. that whole long post was helpful though--you made it clear to me that there IS a difference between how he and zoom operate--while both create their own timeframe, one sits and hides amongst time while the other moves through time at a rate he himself decides. 👆

btw--how do you explain the fact that when mimic was expelled, he was grasping nate's limp body?

ps--sorry folks, i know this is off-topic but it's too fun to leave alone.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Then how did that tribe was able to see Ares and Nate fight? Nobody should be able to see that.

As I already noted that tribe saw Ares and X-Man's fight because it was changing history, and as a result it was leaving its mark upon it.

They saw it by predicting it through the new constellations and stars being made.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Id didn't change his argument. The link you provided me with had him say it was even more impressive than what Zoom does, and is beyond what speed is even capable of making it irrelevant.

Id is claiming that it is even greater than what I am claiming it is. That it cannot be matched by any kind of quantifiable speed.

Galan only begrudgingly admitted Zoom would get the first hit in, and neither agreed with you that it was not some sort of temporal speed. They still think it's what Zoom does or some equivalent.

The only difference is that Nate Grey has to turn it on or off.

Not true both Ares and Nate Grey were changing history when they fought within it, and even altering the cosmology with the creation of new constellations foretelling their battle.

Ares wasn't even inside of it at first either.

He chased after Nate, and entered the Planck length between moments.

No, they both could. They were changing history as they fought, and Ares could chase right after Nate when he was in it.

The fight itself notes that Nate and Ares changed history as a result of their fight, and Nate could drag Mimic in there with him.

http://i.imgur.com/Czgpf.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2ep5zqa.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/rwnegw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r7BcF.jpg

Nate could also force Mimic back to normal time, and his fight with Ares erased part of Karla's past from existence.

He is able to interact with people all across their timelines.

Nate Grey used time manipulation to move between the Planck length between moments, and that is clearly similiar in regards to what Zoom does.

He wasn't completely hidden either. Ares was able to notice Nate when he was moving that fast, and chased after him in the Planck length between moments.

Nate Grey isn't just accessing his own timeline. He is accessing the timelines of everyone around him.

You would need something actually comparable to what Nate accomplished. Which means you need an instance where Superman acted within Planck time.

Which to my knowledge Kal-El has no instances of.

Yes, and distance divided by time equals speed. Nate and Ares were actually moving in this timeframe which gives us the kind of speed they have access to.

As noted by Endless Mike.

That's because Nate is moving so fast at that point no one can detect him. The only exception being Ares who found him, and then chased after him.

No, it makes complete sense once you understand the concepts behind this. It's not rocket science. You get speed out of distance and time.

It is not stopped.

Nate and Ares were manipulating time in such a way that they were able to operate in the Planck length between moments.

Which is something completely different than what Nate is doing here. This is temporal induced superspeed.

It's not a time-stop.

As evident by the fact Ares could chase after him.

Yes, it does.

As it has been explained to you several times but you have consistently tried to dismiss it for no good reason.

You're arguing author intent, and assuming they used it wrong with no evidence to back up your opinion.

No, it's not as simple as that.

You're arguing author intent here as well. When it's clear what is being said in the comic book itself.

That's what you're doing right now. You have nothing backing your claims, and the comic book itself disagrees with you.

This is time-manipulation induced superspeed so you can't argue they're not moving super fast because of any lack of collateral damage. It's clear that they're moving between moments in time, and influencing nearby timelines in their fight. Then there's the fact Nate Grey can forcibly drag people in and out of it

You do know that length can be used to refer to both time AND distance, right?

"The length of a day."

"The length of that bastard's vacation."

"The length of that man's suffering."

"The length of this incredible pornographic video."

By the context, and the fact "between moments" is being mentioned, it's clear that length is being used as TIME not DISTANCE here.

Anything else wouldn't make sense.

If you read through the rest of my posts you would have seen that I already brought this up, and explained what was happening here.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17154140/Dark_X-Men_03_0016.jpg.html

This is because both Nate Grey and Ares are moving so fast that their fight is having an influence on all of the timelines near them.

How did they enter Karla Sofen's history and she lost a memory?

As I already noted when they start moving this fast they shift through the timelines all around them.

Nate isn't just influencing his own timeline, and neither is Ares. They're influencing the timelines all around them.

They are moving through the time stream. Not exactly a speed feat.

It is explicity a speed feat, and notes that they're moving between the Planck length between moments.

As brought up before this is similiar as to what Zoom does. The difference is that it needs to be turned on and off.

It's a more powerful version of Kabuto's clock up from Kamen Rider Kabuto. That's the closest comparison I can think of.

As for comic book comparisons this is like the Flash racing the Black Flash. They're moving so fast that they're transvering time.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Are they bricks, though? Apoc can do...well, whatever, lol. Meggan is pretty versatile. And lets not get started on Nate...

From purely a brick standpoint I can't think of any.

Originally posted by krisblaze
From purely a brick standpoint I can't think of any.

id found the only real OP-based answer i think:

Originally posted by "Id"
Closest thing to a superman clone the X-Man have to offer is Gabriel Sheperd.

problem is he has too few appearances to really say how he'd stack up but it was clear he was intended to operate as a superman-type character imo. what level of superman is open to speculation. /shrug