Comparisons between Maul and Vader in season two finale

Started by Ziggystardust9 pages
Originally posted by Darth Thor
We don't HAVE TO take Maul's statement at face value,

So it’s a concession?

but it would be pretty uncharacteristic for Maul to admit that if he had a shot.

It isn’t of much consequence. His in-character tendencies and the consistency at which he reverts to them, are not the important points. What there is to consider, is the reliability of Maul’s opinion. With that in mind...

I don't ever remember him saying any such thing about Obi-Wan Kenobi or Count Dooku.

1) Does he know the full extent of Mace’s ability, or he making an assessment from repute? I’m fairly certain he was unaware that the Council Master could leave Palaptine in a heap, parted from his weapon

2) Does he know the full extent of Vader’s ability, or is he making an assessment from repute. Because if he is, then the face of the new Empire is far more intimidating in notoriety, than anything Obi Wan or Mace Windu are presenting with their meager reputations

As for Maul’s boiler plate characteristics, why would they have stayed the same? I’m pretty sure this Maul has gone through some rather extensive character changes since TPM, and is likely to have adopted new traits and oddities that aren’t reflective of his TCW persona either. For example, we know that this Maul certainly doesn’t refrain from opening his mouth, even when it’s not necessary. He’s also seen employing verbal manipulation to meet his ends and his entire schtick for enticing Kanan, was to pose as a frail old master; Old Master Maul.

Then there's the fact that the people he was trying to convince bought that part of his argument at least. No one was like "I don't buy his reasoning. He wouldn't be afraid to challenge Vader.

And you seem to have trouble establishing a valid authority for this debatle. for starters, two people who’ve only just met the guy and Ezra? More importantly, it is both illogical and a fallacy to draw conclusions from their silence, and of course, their silence does not necessarily mean they ‘bought’ the notion either.

And when asked about that line Sam Witwer and FPJ talked about how Protective Filoni is of Vader.

Protective in what regard, though? Where they talking about the incessant need to portray him rofl-stomping everyone and their mothers in a direct confrontation? Or might they be talking about his character, and how despite having the creative license, they don’t want him to be much different from his classical 1980’s self?

As for Filoni, he confirmed that the initial plan was for Maul to die to Vader in that episode, but they ultimately decided they wanted Maul around a little longer.

There is nothing outside the source material. If it didn’t happen on-screen, it has no baring in-discussion.

Then there's their respective fights on the show. Where Maul was stalemating Ahsoka, Vader was soundly defeating Ahsoka.

Wrong. There were two relatively inconclusive fights, the last was cut short by an off-panel event, and injuries were sustained on both parties beforehand.

Where Vader handles Kanan easily one handed and has him and Ezra running for their lives, Kanan, while blind defeats Maul 1 v 1.

Muddy comparison, and one that only proves that Kanan had some unusual circumstance aiding him. I could just say that Ashoka has decent fights with both Vader and Maul, yet Kanan stifled the latter after… 3 blade clashes? Is Kanan > Vader?

So bearing all that in mind, I think we can safely take Maul's word for it that he can't defeat Vader alone.

All that in mind is just some relative convictions that have little bearing on the matter. So we’re back to taking Maul’s word as gospel, in spite of his misleading intentions.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Indeed, it would do well to shake things up if that happened.

Yes it would.

The problem is, it won't happen; because the authorial intent is what drives what happens on-screen. And the message I'm getting from Filoni thusfar seems to be that Vader is a different class of villain than Maul in Rebels, much like Dooku was a different class of villain than Ventress in TCW.

Not necessarily.

Note that a number of people reject the notion of authorial intent Word of God, considering something to be canon only if it appeared in the original source material, and that if the creator wanted a certain fact to be canon, they should have included it in the work to begin with. Some people go even further, considering the uncertainty and ambiguity of canon to be a good thing and decry the Word of God as shackling the imagination and interpretations of the fans — a belief supported by some modern literary criticism, notably in Wimstatt and Beardsley's "The Intentional Fallacy" and Barthes' Death of the Author essay, both of which argue that the interpretation of a work cannot be limited to attempts to discern the "author's intentions."

Something else to consider is that it may sometimes be difficult for people to tell if certain creators are making a genuine statement of canon or not. So, be careful when relying on things like humorous DVD commentaries and interviews on comedic talk shows for confirmation about something.
Another thorny issue is that not all stories have a single creator, and the collaborators may not actually agree with interpretations of their story that weren't made explicit in the work. This is especially likely if they no longer work together, and particularly if they had a real-life falling out. In this case, there are multiple "Gods" given potentially contradictory explanations, so whose word is to be considered correct?

Ziggy has adopted the new cause to shut down the double standards and the hypocrisy of Vader fanboys. Vader fanboys come and get me.

Oh for f*** sake Ziggy I can't directly quote you cause the page is just blank. Had the same problem in the Dooku vs Vader thread which got really annoying in responding...

Yeah that happens, it's annoying.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh for f*** sake Ziggy I can't directly quote you cause the page is just blank. Had the same problem in the Dooku vs Vader thread which got really annoying in responding...
Deal with it. Your avoidance of logic and common sense when it comes to anything Vader related is very nauseating.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So it’s a concession?

No, how exactly did you get concession from that?

We don't Have To, but that doesn't mean we just close our eyes, cover our ears and deny the clear message we're being given.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It isn’t of much consequence. His in-character tendencies and the consistency at which he reverts to them, are not the important points. What there is to consider, is the reliability of Maul’s opinion. With that in mind...

Yes and I'd say the reliability of Maul knowing his own limits is pretty damn strong.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
1) Does he know the full extent of Mace’s ability, or he making an assessment from repute? I’m fairly certain he was unaware that the Council Master could leave Palaptine in a heap, parted from his weapon

2) Does he know the full extent of Vader’s ability, or is he making an assessment from repute. Because if he is, then the face of the new Empire is far more intimidating in notoriety, than anything Obi Wan or Mace Windu are presenting with their meager reputations

As for Maul’s boiler plate characteristics, why would they have stayed the same? I’m pretty sure this Maul has gone through some rather extensive character changes since TPM, and is likely to have adopted new traits and oddities that aren’t reflective of his TCW persona either. For example, we know that this Maul certainly doesn’t refrain from opening his mouth, even when it’s not necessary. He’s also seen employing verbal manipulation to meet his ends and his entire schtick for enticing Kanan, was to pose as a frail old master; Old Master Maul.

1) I'm not claiming his assessment of any combatant in the world fighting another is accurate. Just his own limitations, which we have no reason at all to question.
2) Considering he's devoted the last 15 years of his life to destroying the Sith, I'm pretty confident he would have learned everything there is to know about Vader's abilities.

So what Maul's become humble in his abilities now? Really, you think he's matured or something.

More likely he wants to survive so assesses his fights more realistically.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And you seem to have trouble establishing a valid authority for this debatle. for starters, two people who’ve only just met the guy and Ezra? More importantly, it is both illogical and a fallacy to draw conclusions from their silence, and of course, their silence does not necessarily mean they ‘bought’ the notion either.

Actually Ahsoka has encountered Maul before, and obviously knows Vader.

And yes when there are several people around who don't object, especially people who know something about the subject matter, it's usually a further sign of the statement being true.

For example when the Chancellor says "This Republic which has stood strong for a thousand years" in front of many other people, with no one correcting him, it's pretty safe to take it as fact that the Republic has been around for a thousand years.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Protective in what regard, though? Where they talking about the incessant need to portray him rofl-stomping everyone and their mothers in a direct confrontation? Or might they be talking about his character, and how despite having the creative license, they don’t want him to be much different from his classical 1980’s self?

No he was clearly referring to the "protective" part in how he performs in combat.

Kristian Harloff said to FPJ "I like how Maul admitted he can't take Vader" to which FPJ replied, "Oh Yeah, Filoni's really protective over Vader" then something about that's how Lucas wanted it IIRC, but will have to recheck the second part.

Then Sam Witwer himself chimes in saying how it was always difficult for them to find worthy opponents for Anakin in TCW, because they didn't want to downgrade Vader!

So again, Maul's line was put in to secure Vader's position in this Universe. It was a message not just from Maul, but from the creators of the show, and of Canon.

If it was just about Maul manipulating them he could have said "I can not take the Sith alone," or "I can not take down the Empire alone", but he specifically gave his reasoning for everything he's doing, which was that he Can Not Take VADER Alone. The manipulation only came in where he pretends he wants Kanan and Ahsoka's help to defeat Vader, whereas his real intention is to take Ezra as his Apprentice to defeat Vader together. Plus use the WMD at the Sith Temple.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
There is nothing outside the source material. If it didn’t happen on-screen, it has no baring in-discussion.

Again this is a case of let's just close our eyes and cover our ears and pretend nothing was said.

Fill-in told us all through S1 that the Ghost crew would lose pretty quickly to Vader. Then when that fight happens in S2 it's a very One Sided fight in which the entire Ghost crew run for their lives from him...

He told us none of the Inquisitors would be a match for Ahsoka, and then guess what... Ashoka defeats 2 Inquisitors combined..

He told us Ahsoka wouldn't go down easy to Vader, and that she's put up a fight. And Lo and Behold that's exactly what happened.

So there's simply no reason not to believe him when he says Maul would die to Vader had they fought. No reason at all. Filoni's pretty much kept good on his statements like that.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Wrong. There were two relatively inconclusive fights, the last was cut short by an off-panel event, and injuries were sustained on both parties beforehand.

You really telling me Vader vs Ahsoka looked like a stalemate to you?

Neither party seemed to have the advantage in the Maul vs Ahsoka fight.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Muddy comparison, and one that only proves that Kanan had some unusual circumstance aiding him. I could just say that Ashoka has decent fights with both Vader and Maul, yet Kanan stifled the latter after… 3 blade clashes? Is Kanan > Vader?

Ans what circumstances were they, him being determined to protect Ezra? He confidently says to Maul "I warned you", whereas a few minutes later he has no power at all to stop Ezra being dragged towards Vader.

No one's claiming that Kanan wasn't amped against Maul, or that he could have kept up that level of combat for much longer. What we're correctly stating is it's pretty evident that Amp or no Amp, Kanan could never ever challenge Vader alone, which Filoni has confirmed for us numerous times.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
All that in mind is just some relative convictions that have little bearing on the matter. So we’re back to taking Maul’s word as gospel, in spite of his misleading intentions.

I suggest going through my post again if this is still your stance.

I'm not sure what everyone's deal is with this whole Vader thing, what specifically is the problem?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I'm not sure what everyone's deal is with this whole Vader thing, what specifically is the problem?

They don't want to accept Maul's statement that he can't take Vader until it actually happens.

And even if it happens I'm guessing we will be hearing how Maul wasn't in his prime, which has already been suggested by the same parties.

But didn't Dave or someone say that they didn't wanna shoehorn in a Vader vs Maul fight? Or something of that nature?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But didn't Dave or someone say that they didn't wanna shoehorn in a Vader vs Maul fight? Or something of that nature?

I sure hope so. I don't want Maul to die to Ezra or Kanan, because I would have to send death threats to Filoni if that happened.

Facts

1.Maul blinds Kanan.
2.Vader injured his shoulder.
3.Kanan survives both encounters.
4.Tano flees Maul.
5.Tano won't leave Vader and she isn't injured at all.
6.Vader's helmet was seriously struck by Tano.
7.Maul killed two Inquisitors.

Ps. Thor fact bonus round. Hera out piloted him.

It's peak Vader guys :/ Filoni won't let Maul last a second against him

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
It's peak Vader guys :/ Filoni won't let Maul last a second against him

Originally posted by quanchi112
Facts

[B]1.Maul blinds Kanan.
2.Vader injured his shoulder.
3.Kanan survives both encounters.
4.Tano flees Maul.
5.Tano won't leave Vader and she isn't injured at all.
6.Vader's helmet was seriously struck by Tano.
7.Maul killed two Inquisitors.

Ps. Thor fact bonus round. Hera out piloted him. [/B]


👆 ✅

What facts do you have Vader-boys?

We are decimating our enemies.

Next we will hear how Maul/Khan can take out Primarch Sanguinius.

Originally posted by quanchi112

I love Maul as much as you but you're blind. Rebels has already ****ed Maul, he's only there for Ezra's journey to the darkside and once that happens, he'll will probably get shot down by some stormtrooper

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I love Maul as much as you but you're blind. Rebels has already ****ed Maul, he's only there for Ezra's journey to the darkside and once that happens, Maul will probably get shot down by some stormtrooper
You clearly don't as you're confusing facts with your paranoia. Maul is there because he isn't dead. Maul still wants to go after his enemies. I bet you thought he wouldn't outlive the clone wars series. In the one episode he was in he killed two inquisitors that tormented the heroes all season, seduced Ezra closer to the dark side, and blinded Kanan. He also knew how to acquire the Sith holocron which Vader couldn't even ascertain despite the backing of an empire. Do not doubt Maul. Anyone who doubts him will be dealt with by me. This ILS fella has lost his nerve and his edge.

Lmao @ the Quanchi facts. Do yourself a favour and let Ziggy handle the debating for the Maul defence camp.