Comparisons between Maul and Vader in season two finale

Started by quanchi1129 pages

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lmao @ the Quanchi facts. Do yourself a favour and let Ziggy handle the debating for the Maul defence camp.
So you can't refute them. Are you blaming the quote function again ? I started this topic and the logic behind it. Ziggy realized it works. Your whole statements over actual source material is flat out ridiculous. As I said until it hits the screen they are just opinions. You act like a brainstorming session that doesn't hit the egenral public is actual evidence. Based off your horrendous logic Maul overpowered Sidious with his force powers. They even started the process with the animation department which went further than Vader supposedly killing him. They didn't animate that, kiddo.

Your hypocrisy is ringing alarm bells. Keep running, coward.

Quanchi, do you even like star wars or know anything about it lol?

Originally posted by BazookaMaster
Quanchi, do you even like star wars or know anything about it lol?
Yes, I do. I do not love the Ot trilogy as I'm sure most of you grew up with your nostalgic boners. I do love Snoke, Maul, the First Order and the current state of things and the promise of a better tomorrow. Debate with me or perish at the stroke of my keyboard.

Im not a debater lol

I mostly make threads

Originally posted by BazookaMaster
Im not a debater lol

I mostly make threads

Watch me and learn. If you need any help my new apprentice Kurk will instruct you.

Originally posted by BazookaMaster
Quanchi, do you even like star wars or know anything about it lol?

😂

That's a "No" to the first question.

As for the 2nd, he's learned a lot more since he began obsessing over me, but has a habit of twisting/ignoring/denying the facts he doesn't like, and clinging to the ones he does, just to try and annoy Star Wars fans. Especially fans of the OT.

He's actually a NUTrekkie. His whole mission here is to prove Khan can beat any Jedi/Sith in a fight.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No, how exactly did you get concession from that?

A concession is a premise that’s granted in response to a debate. I made note of the reliability of Maul’s self doubt, and you agreed that we don’t have to take his word at face value. That particular point has been conceded, because that is what a concession is. Now that’s not to say your entire argument has been hand-waved, but please realise that by agreeing with me, even partially, you are ceding ground.

We don't Have To

So it’s a concession?

but that doesn't mean we just close our eyes, cover our ears and deny the clear message we're being given.

The clear message I’m getting, is that Maul has his own plans and will deceive people to achieve them. He might not be saddled with a big bag of villain balls so much as he’s an expert juggler. He is more or less enforcing on himself the designated villain role. With that comes a dose of disingenuity. So outside of Maul’s questionable convictions; which as you agree, are questionable, there isn’t much of a ‘message’ to be received.

Yes and I'd say the reliability of Maul knowing his own limits is pretty damn strong.

Well given that you think estimations of his own limits have remained unchanged since TCW, you might want to tell me why he goes into a fight with Sidious, ushering his nigh-untrained brother along, when they are collectively outmatched; ditto to Mace Windu. Did he understand his limits on those occasions, or was he just feining confidence?

I'm not claiming his assessment of any combatant in the world fighting another is accurate.

So it’s a concession.

Just his own limitations, which we have no reason at all to question.

Well strangely, in a way that’s surprising, I was under the impression that one must measure limitations from both parties, in order to make a reliable assessment. If Maul is to be some impeccable judge between himself and Vader, then yes, he certainly needs to have his own idea of the latter’s capabilities, which we have plenty of reason to question.

2) Considering he's devoted the last 15 years of his life to destroying the Sith, I'm pretty confident he would have learned everything there is to know about Vader's abilities.

Now we’re entering the realm of speculation and guesswork. Just as much as much as Maul’s adventures have been kept unknown, we can only make logical guesses to what he’s been doing. It is true that theories are fine when discerning the unknown, but in judging the validity of hypotheses from an observation, there exists scientific methods that allow us to determine from a list of possible choices, which theories are the most plausible ones, and which are not.

For Maul to have learned everything there is to know about Vader's abilities, you’d need to introduce a sub-plot where he’s spends a peculiar amount of time spying on the latter. Which is a less reasonable conclusion than Maul, like many others, simply having knowledge that Vader is a famed Jedi hunter. Unreasonable explanations for a phenomena can be discarded in favor or more defensible ones. For example:

Something really odd happened at my place last night. I left my unfinished bowl of cereal and milk out on my deck before I went to bed. This morning when I got up, all the milk was gone. Well, all summer I’ve had these rings of mushrooms popping up in my backyard. I’ve read that those mushrooms grow where the fairies dance around in circles at night. I think that the fairies that were in my backyard came up and drank the milk. I’m going to write to the newspaper and tell them I have proof that fairies have been in my backyard.

-DarthChrisHemsworth

This is why entities such as ghosts, UFO's, and strange creatures are so popular. These are things that science has to deal with, in maintaining people's respect for a predictable, natural world. Being able to recognize the least plausible hypothesis and explain why it should be abandoned in favor of a reasonable one, is an important part of critical thinking.

So what Maul's become humble in his abilities now? Really, you think he's matured or something.

No, that is not what I’ve concluded. I am suggesting first and foremost, that Maul is not being genuine, and that if he is, his genuine word does not have to be the objective truth.

Actually Ahsoka has encountered Maul before

She has?

and obviously knows Vader.

Correction, she knew of Vader. She knew Anakin.

And yes when there are several people around who don't object, especially people who know something about the subject matter, it's usually a further sign of the statement being true.

That’s incorrect. This is an informal fallacy known as the Argument from Silence. Their lack of response, or in this case, lack of contradiction, is not evidence that they agree with his reasoning. It can not be deemed as such. For starters, their silence can be interpreted as ignorance on the matter, given that they’ve only seen a mere minute of Maul’s fighting; in which he was likely holding back.

As a secondary point, I can just point to their lack of unison-agreement, as some evidence against Maul’s words. Nobody makes an overt gesture to agree with him. Nobody, for example, interjects with a ”yes Maul, you’d get stomped” and we know that both Ashoka & Kanan remain weary of his true intentions.

For example when the Chancellor says "This Republic which has stood strong for a thousand years" in front of many other people, with no one correcting him, it's pretty safe to take it as fact that the Republic has been around for a thousand years.

Muddy example, and I must say that you’ve picked a rather poor character to use as proof for this occasion. In fact, you’ve likely picked the worst character in the franchise (possibly in the realm of fiction too) for relaying objective truths. I could just mention this statement he made in front of anakin:

"I haven't ran since I was a boy on Naboo."

-Darth Sidious

Anakin didn’t contradict this statement, so is it now a stone-carved fact? Another another truth from Chancellor Palpatine, also known as Darth Sidious, who lived a double life of a Naboo Senator just to manipulate the political system of the Galactic Republic until he was named Supreme Chancellor, and eventually Emperor? Perhaps not. Perhaps Palpatine, much like Maul, was attempting to deceive his contemporaries with a statement that isn’t totally genuine.

The manipulation only came in where he pretends he wants Kanan and Ahsoka's help to defeat Vader, whereas his real intention is to take Ezra as his Apprentice to defeat Vader together. Plus use the WMD at the Sith Temple.

… Thank you for debunking your own points.

You really telling me Vader vs Ahsoka looked like a stalemate to you? Neither party seemed to have the advantage in the Maul vs Ahsoka fight.

Neither fights were conclusive, the first was too short and the second was interrupted. As far as lightsaber duelling goes, Ashoka may or may not be weaker than Maul and is pretty capable of stalemating with Vader. The implied death only happens off-screen.

No one's claiming that Kanan wasn't amped against Maul, or that he could have kept up that level of combat for much longer.

So it’s a concession?

No he was clearly referring to the "protective" part in how he performs in combat. Kristian Harloff said to FPJ "I like how Maul admitted he can't take Vader" to which FPJ replied, "Oh Yeah, Filoni's really protective over Vader" then something about that's how Lucas wanted it IIRC, but will have to recheck the second part. Then Sam Witwer himself chimes in saying how it was always difficult for them to find worthy opponents for Anakin in TCW, because they didn't want to downgrade Vader!

Fill-in told us all through S1 that the Ghost crew would lose pretty quickly to Vader. Then when that fight happens in S2 it's a very One Sided fight in which the entire Ghost crew run for their lives from him… He told us none of the Inquisitors would be a match for Ahsoka, and then guess what... Ashoka defeats 2 Inquisitors combined.. He told us Ahsoka wouldn't go down easy to Vader, and that she's put up a fight. And Lo and Behold that's exactly what happened.

I’m actually a big fan of the Death of the Author, a linguistic theory written by Roland Barthes. It questions who is the real author of a text. The word text could be a book, photograph or anything created by a conscious mind, and therefore, can be perceived and interpreted by another person. However, when a text is created, it’s merely a multi-faceted manifestation of different cultures, beliefs and theologies. So when a writer puts pen to paper and claims certain ideas are their own, they are ignorant of the fact that they themselves have borrowed everything from previously existing ideas. This is especially the case for Dave Filoni, who by himself, is neither responsible for the franchise nor are his opinions - or his intentions - in any measure a fact of canon.

On a more superficial, yet still substantial note, Star Wars does not have a single writer, there are multiple "creators" giving potentially contradictory explanations. So whose word is objectively correct? Likewise, in many cases the writers of a story are not the copyright holders, meaning that they're not the highest authorities. If a work has more than one creator and they disagree with each other on a crucial point, you'll likely see fans embrace conflicting statements. What happens when multiple fans are equipped with the Word of God? What happens when one word turns out to be more ridiculous than expected?

Is there a bible fight?


What we're correctly stating is it's pretty evident that Amp or no Amp, Kanan could never ever challenge Vader alone, which Filoni has confirmed for us numerous times. So there's simply no reason not to believe him when he says Maul would die to Vader had they fought. No reason at all. Filoni's pretty much kept good on his statements like that.

As I said before, a work does not originate with the author's intention. Even if you believe Filoni to be an exception to this rule, authors are still unreliable beings; what they say their work means, may not be what it means at all, and in any case there can be a huge discrepancy between intention and end result. Elizabeth Jolley summed it up at the Brisbane Writers festival. when she was asked by a member of the audience for the meaning of her novel, The Well (1986). She said: “I have written what I have written. It's up to you to work it out”. The meaning of a work is not what the writer had in mind at some moment during composition of the work, or what the writer thinks the work means after it is finished, but, rather, what he or she succeeded in embodying in the work. So unless Vader is seen fighting Maul, and the conclusive result is that he wins a fight with Maul, it is not yet canon, and is therefore, still debatable.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
😂

That's a "No" to the first question.

As for the 2nd, he's learned a lot more since he began obsessing over me, but has a habit of twisting/ignoring/denying the facts he doesn't like, and clinging to the ones he does, just to try and annoy Star Wars fans. Especially fans of the OT.

He's actually a NUTrekkie. His whole mission here is to prove Khan can beat any Jedi/Sith in a fight.

He also ignores the EU, despite the fact he goes to the EU section...what logic.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lmao @ the Quanchi facts. Do yourself a favour and let Ziggy handle the debating for the Maul defence camp.

The irony of Ziggy handling the Maul defense camp is too much.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
He also ignores the EU, despite the fact he goes to the EU section...what logic.

Well to be fair he's entitled to stick to Canon only debates. And there is such a thing as the Canon EU. But yeah pointless bringing up Canon in a DE Palpatine vs Exar Kum debate Lol

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The irony of Ziggy handling the Maul defense camp is too much.

Given you're the only decent debator on that camp in this thread, the job is yours Lol

I think Ashoka is significantly weaker than both Vader and Maul, but just like in real life, people can sometimes operate far above their normal level in moments of great emotional weight, when their purpose/vision is unusually strong or when they feel they have nothing to lose etc.

For example Mace pulled the fight of his life against Sidious and IIRC during the fight he thinks he's drawing on the Force far more than he ever did. But it had been stated/implied that Mace and Dooku were peers in terms of power, and that's while Dooku was a Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
😂

That's a "No" to the first question.

As for the 2nd, he's learned a lot more since he began obsessing over me, but has a habit of twisting/ignoring/denying the facts he doesn't like, and clinging to the ones he does, just to try and annoy Star Wars fans. Especially fans of the OT.

He's actually a NUTrekkie. His whole mission here is to prove Khan can beat any Jedi/Sith in a fight.

My opinion has changed the core of your beliefs among many. Your whole whatever the writers say goes is completely ridiculous and emphasizes their opinions over the evidence. Why even debate ? Why not just cite writers.

😂

Kelvin Trek has nothing to do with the fact this hasn't been settled yet. Maul hasn't crossed swords with Vader but he has stolen his ride. Canon.

😂

Maul 1

Empire 0

Originally posted by Zenwolf
He also ignores the EU, despite the fact he goes to the EU section...what logic.
Default for the eu is canon. Your ignorance won't be tolerated nor will I allow it to fester on my forum. This is my house you're lucky I let you participate in it.

Originally posted by Unbowed
I think Ashoka is significantly weaker than both Vader and Maul, but just like in real life, people can sometimes operate far above their normal level in moments of great emotional weight, when their purpose/vision is unusually strong or when they feel they have nothing to lose etc.

For example Mace pulled the fight of his life against Sidious and IIRC during the fight he thinks he's drawing on the Force far more than he ever did. But it had been stated/implied that Mace and Dooku were peers in terms of power, and that's while Dooku was a Jedi.


And you don't believe this could apply to Maul?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well to be fair he's entitled to stick to Canon only debates. And there is such a thing as the Canon EU. But yeah pointless bringing up Canon in a DE Palpatine vs Exar Kum debate Lol

Well that's what I mean. But I've see him post in some clear EU threads from time to him...yeeep, but not lately of course.

Well, it took a while to read all of the crap.
Quanchi and Kurk are by far the stupidest people on this page. And heck! I prefer the Disney Canon, but they won in stupidity!

Originally posted by Kurk
And you don't believe this could apply to Maul?

It did, against Sidious.