Originally posted by Darth ThorFace the facts. You won't ever face them. Your whole delusional reverence towards Vader based on statements is contradicted by his interactions via the source material. You're wrong, you're ignorant, and you are close minded. Ziggy has seen the sheep like mentality you seem to perpetuate as a flawed perspective.
Kurk is just making fun of Quanchi's stupidity.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Face the facts. You won't ever face them. Your whole delusional reverence towards Vader based on statements is contradicted by his interactions via the source material. You're wrong, you're ignorant, and you are close minded. Ziggy has seen the sheep like mentality you seem to perpetuate as a flawed perspective.
You're so ****ing retarded.
Not getting into semantics over how we're using the term "concession."
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The clear message I’m getting, is that Maul has his own plans and will deceive people to achieve them. He might not be saddled with a big bag of villain balls so much as he’s an expert juggler. He is more or less enforcing on himself the designated villain role. With that comes a dose of disingenuity. So outside of Maul’s questionable convictions; which as you agree, are questionable, there isn’t much of a ‘message’ to be received.
Even him being disingenuous, he has to come up with the most plausible story the people he's trying to manipulate will believe.
Considering those people are aware of the abilties of both Maul and Vader (Ahsoka has fought Maul pre-Rebels, Kanan and Ezra had already fought Vader, and all 3 had seen Maul in action against the Inquisitors), it seems he's spoken the truth there to aid in his manipulation.
Like I said before, he could have easily said "I can't take the Sith alone" saving his pride, and giving just as much reason for them to believe him. But he specifically says "I can not defeat Vader alone", because he knows and everyone he's talking to knows that's likely the case, which he seems to have accepted a while ago, so to survive he knows which fights to avoid.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well given that you think estimations of his own limits have remained unchanged since TCW, you might want to tell me why he goes into a fight with Sidious, ushering his nigh-untrained brother along, when they are collectively outmatched; ditto to Mace Windu. Did he understand his limits on those occasions, or was he just feining confidence?
Simple.. He never sought out Sidious. Sidious came to kill them (as far as he knew), and they were simply fighting for their lives. In fact he even attempted to submit to Sidious before the fight.
As for Mace, there's nothing to say he knew of the abilities of TCW Mace. And even if he did, he had Dooku and his troops around and on side. Which is how Mace was defeated.
Remember he only admitted he can't take Vader "alone."
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well strangely, in a way that’s surprising, I was under the impression that one must measure limitations from both parties, in order to make a reliable assessment. If Maul is to be some impeccable judge between himself and Vader, then yes, he certainly needs to have his own idea of the latter’s capabilities, which we have plenty of reason to question.
Again no idea why we have reason to question that when his whole purpose is clearly driven by his desire to get revenge on the Sith.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Now we’re entering the realm of speculation and guesswork. Just as much as much as Maul’s adventures have been kept unknown, we can only make logical guesses to what he’s been doing. It is true that theories are fine when discerning the unknown, but in judging the validity of hypotheses from an observation, there exists scientific methods that allow us to determine from a list of possible choices, which theories are the most plausible ones, and which are not.
Of course, but I've already saved you the trouble 😛
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
For Maul to have learned everything there is to know about Vader's abilities, you’d need to introduce a sub-plot where he’s spends a peculiar amount of time spying on the latter. Which is a less reasonable conclusion than Maul, like many others, simply having knowledge that Vader is a famed Jedi hunter. Unreasonable explanations for a phenomena can be discarded in favor or more defensible ones. For example:Something really odd happened at my place last night. I left my unfinished bowl of cereal and milk out on my deck before I went to bed. This morning when I got up, all the milk was gone. Well, all summer I’ve had these rings of mushrooms popping up in my backyard. I’ve read that those mushrooms grow where the fairies dance around in circles at night. I think that the fairies that were in my backyard came up and drank the milk. I’m going to write to the newspaper and tell them I have proof that fairies have been in my backyard.
-DarthChrisHemsworth
This is why entities such as ghosts, UFO's, and strange creatures are so popular. These are things that science has to deal with, in maintaining people's respect for a predictable, natural world. Being able to recognize the least plausible hypothesis and explain why it should be abandoned in favor of a reasonable one, is an important part of critical thinking.
True, and I've already given the most reasonable conclusion.
Which is that Maul has clearly studied all there is to know about Palpatine's new Apprentice/Enforcer. Also don't forget Force users can often just sense the power of another. Yoda tells Kenobi "Not Powerful enough are you to fight this Emperor".
Karan and Ezra sense the power of Vader before facing him, they just hadn't truly figured what they were sensing. Ashoka even leaves Kanan to face Maul alone saying "you can continue your fight with me if you get past him first," meaning she Must have sensed Kanan's temporary current Force power up.
And of course with UFO's we don't have the convenience of aliens coming down and explaining UFO's to us. However with fictional work we do have the advantage of the creators of that work explaining their work to us. Just as Lucas himself confirmed Yoda's line about Kenobi being incapable of fighting Palpatine, so have FPJ, Sam Witwer and Dave Filoni pretty much confirmed to us Maul's line of not being Vader's equal.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
No, that is not what I’ve concluded. I am suggesting first and foremost, that Maul is not being genuine, and that if he is, his genuine word does not have to be the objective truth.
He wasn't being genuine. Of course he wasn't. He never is. But given how specific he was about his abilities, and how people involved in the show have confirmed the truthfulness of that line, massively decreases the chances that he was being disingenuous about that specific part.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
She has?
Yes in undeveloped episodes of the Clone Wars, which Pablo and Dave take as Canon, hence Maul's line "running again Lady Tano?"
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Correction, she knew of Vader. She knew Anakin.
But she has connected with and sensed Vader's presence and power. And she already knew Vader and Anakin were 1.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That’s incorrect. This is an informal fallacy known as the Argument from Silence. Their lack of response, or in this case, lack of contradiction, is not evidence that they agree with his reasoning. It can not be deemed as such. For starters, their silence can be interpreted as ignorance on the matter, given that they’ve only seen a mere minute of Maul’s fighting; in which he was likely holding back.As a secondary point, I can just point to their lack of unison-agreement, as some evidence against Maul’s words. Nobody makes an overt gesture to agree with him. Nobody, for example, interjects with a ”yes Maul, you’d get stomped” and we know that both Ashoka & Kanan remain weary of his true intentions.
Already addressed, but it basically all adds up to the massive likelihood that Maul was being truthful and realistic in his assessment for that particular line.
Not sure how/why Maul was likely holding back against the Inquisitors, when he was actually performing better than Ahsoka and Kanan, so clearly was displaying his abilities.
They simply didn't trust him to work with them. But the fact that they DID work with him shows they were in 2 minds about it, and that was likely due to him helping them fight the Inquisitors, and his reasoning of not being able to take Vader alone made sense at least.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Muddy example, and I must say that you’ve picked a rather poor character to use as proof for this occasion. In fact, you’ve likely picked the worst character in the franchise (possibly in the realm of fiction too) for relaying objective truths. I could just mention this statement he made in front of anakin:"I haven't ran since I was a boy on Naboo."
-Darth Sidious
Anakin didn’t contradict this statement, so is it now a stone-carved fact? Another another truth from Chancellor Palpatine, also known as Darth Sidious, who lived a double life of a Naboo Senator just to manipulate the political system of the Galactic Republic until he was named Supreme Chancellor, and eventually Emperor? Perhaps not. Perhaps Palpatine, much like Maul, was attempting to deceive his contemporaries with a statement that isn’t totally genuine.
Actually that's exactly WHY he's the perfect example to use, when deciding the truthfulness of a statement.
The factors are - how many people listen to it without objection, and who it is listening to it.
Taking his words to Anakin Only is reducing the credibility of it. But just so you know, Anakin did object to Palpatine when he tried to convince him Sith and Jedi are the same.
Not every single line Palpatine and Maul state is a lie. Was Maul lying when he said to Ezra that the Sith took everything from him and killed his Brother?
Nope that was truthful, even though he was manipulating Ezra the whole time. And the evidence and context and character of Maul suggests it's almost a certainly that Maul was telling the truth about him not being Vader's equal.
So much so, that instead of Not accepting it until proven by a Vader vs Maul onscreen fight, I would suggest it would be more appropriate to do the opposite- To accept it until the unlikely event that it's proven false by a Vader vs Maul onscreen fight.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Thank you for debunking your own points.
I did no such thing. I never denied Maul was manipulating. Doesn't mean everything he says is a lie. And as I've repeated countless time, the evidence all seems to suggest he wasn't lying for that particular sentence.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Neither fights were conclusive, the first was too short and the second was interrupted. As far as lightsaber duelling goes, Ashoka may or may not be weaker than Maul and is pretty capable of stalemating with Vader. The implied death only happens off-screen.
You don't have to live or die to be the clearly inferior combatant.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So it’s a concession?
I never denied Kanan was amped. Btw how do we both know Kanan was Amped. Is that specifically stated anywhere. Nope. We just know the likelihood of that being Kanan's regular ability is very very unlikely. We speculate and come to the most logical conclusion. And assume THAT to be true unless otherwise proven wrong.
Also point of Maul losing to Kanan is, that it's been made pretty crystal clear on the show, that Kana could never challenge Vader alone, let alone defeat him, Peak performance or not.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I’m actually a big fan of the Death of the Author, a linguistic theory written by Roland Barthes. It questions who is the real author of a text. The word text could be a book, photograph or anything created by a conscious mind, and therefore, can be perceived and interpreted by another person. However, when a text is created, it’s merely a multi-faceted manifestation of different cultures, beliefs and theologies. So when a writer puts pen to paper and claims certain ideas are their own, they are ignorant of the fact that they themselves have borrowed everything from previously existing ideas. This is especially the case for Dave Filoni, who by himself, is neither responsible for the franchise nor are his opinions - or his intentions - in any measure a fact of canon.On a more superficial, yet still substantial note, Star Wars does not have a single writer, there are multiple "creators" giving potentially contradictory explanations. So whose word is objectively correct? Likewise, in many cases the writers of a story are not the copyright holders, meaning that they're not the highest authorities. If a work has more than one creator and they disagree with each other on a crucial point, you'll likely see fans embrace conflicting statements. What happens when multiple fans are equipped with the Word of God? What happens when one word turns out to be more ridiculous than expected?
Is there a bible fight?
As I said before, a work does not originate with the author's intention. Even if you believe Filoni to be an exception to this rule, authors are still unreliable beings; what they say their work means, may not be what it means at all, and in any case there can be a huge discrepancy between intention and end result. Elizabeth Jolley summed it up at the Brisbane Writers festival. when she was asked by a member of the audience for the meaning of her novel, The Well (1986). She said: “I have written what I have written. It's up to you to work it out”. The meaning of a work is not what the writer had in mind at some moment during composition of the work, or what the writer thinks the work means after it is finished, but, rather, what he or she succeeded in embodying in the work. So unless Vader is seen fighting Maul, and the conclusive result is that he wins a fight with Maul, it is not yet canon, and is therefore, still debatable.
I've heard of and understand this concept.
But like I said, given Filoni's history, he usually follows up on statements like that. If Maul vs Vader is never conclusively shown, and Filoni's work on those characters finishes, then at that time people like Quanchi can have a sigh of relief as there would then be room for them to still argue Maul > Vader.
But fact is creators who are still in charge of using these characters together in their current incarnations, have the most say on the matter for now, and it would be naive to ignore them until they move on.
There's also the fact that creators intentions only make it less and less likely that Maul was either lying or wrong about his assessment of Maul vs Vader.
Then there's also the fact that Vader has greater feats and accolades than Maul anyway.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also it's not just Filoni.The new Lucasfilm under Disney are simply walking the heck out of their prize boy Vader. You could remove Filoni from the equation, and honestly, nothing going to change at Lucasfilm Canon with the idea that Vader is no. 2 to Palpatine amongst the Sith of the movie eras.
I love how he called you a coward but you're the most badass guy to confront this ignorant, he can't even reply to you
Originally posted by Balta Skywalker
I love how he called you a coward but you're the most badass guy to confront this ignorant, he can't even reply to you
Oh don't worry about the Troll insulting me. He's obsessed with me. I actually have him on ignore and he's desperate to get my attention.
But I still see his comments when people quote him. Might also check the odd time if its a Long conversation going on that's not making sense.
Sam Witwer himself states Maul is no match for Vader or Sidious @ 4:30
Do we really want to keep living living in La La land?
We going to listen to Maul himself, his Voice actor, Kanan's voice actor, Dave Filoni, to all the new Canon that gives Vader the most insane feats and confirms his superiority over ROTS Anakin...
Or we could just accept Quanchi's fantasy Star Wars where Maul beats Vader and Khan beats Yoda 😂
Limited edition only available in Quan's head
Originally posted by Darth ThorSo your whole opinion based ridiculous logic is based off more opinion based logic. Now you're arguing based off the voice actor as if it's proof of anything. Any serious debater doesn't base his opinion off other subjective opinions but rather by the source material aka facts.
Sam Witwer himself states Maul is no match for Vader or Sidious @ 4:30Do we really want to keep living living in La La land?
We going to listen to Maul himself, his Voice actor, Kanan's voice actor, Dave Filoni, to all the new Canon that gives Vader the most insane feats and confirms his superiority over ROTS Anakin...
Or we could just accept Quanchi's fantasy Star Wars where Maul beats Vader and Khan beats Yoda 😂
Limited edition only available in Quan's head
You'll try to ignore the context if they do face off. You've already pretended Vader is on another level than Tano despite her suffering no injuries at all whatsoever from her one on one skirmish with Vader. He didn't look so hot as the episode faded to black.
Originally posted by Balta SkywalkerYou do not know the history between us. Firstly, he accepted a battlezone against me repping Khan against his Vader. The day of he backed out. He has ignored me ever since. I do not respect someone who backs out of their obligations just because he was never fully confident against my Khan.
I love how he called you a coward but you're the most badass guy to confront this ignorant, he can't even reply to you