Anakin Skywalker & Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Exar Kun & Ulic Qel-Droma

That bug prison.

I recall Dooku trying to push them and they literally only budged a foot - as in he failed to budge them. 😬

Neph, can you explain to me why we should raise Ulic rather than lower Kun? You seem to think we should raise SWTOR characters in such situations but lower PT characters in similar ones.

We'd like to understand your calculus.

Technically if he budged them, he didn't fail to budge them. He did, however, fail to send them flying like Neph is trying to pass off.

Where did I say he sent them flying?

True, I take that back; that's not what you said, I just misinterpreted what you meant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He choked out 9 Jedi at once at once. He's far stronger than Ommin, who b*tchslapped 6 powerful Jedi at once. He casually one-shot Axleema who at her weakest was disintegrating people.

And disintegrating someone with a Force blast doesn't appear to be comparable to doing so with standard Force abilities. I'm not that impressed.

Well I did just point out that Tott Doneeta was able to deflect Basilisk War Droid Cannon fire and blocked a Heat Storm powerful enough to disintegrate people. Heat Storms also have a wind speed over twice that of a level 4 hurricane. Even if you don't think that's on Kenobi's level for some reason, there were like 4 other Jedi there.

I don't care, you haven't debunked it here. AP has more credibility on this topic than you do and seems to have provided evidence that debunks your claim. From what I know, Kun had years of time left to expand in.

Regardless, even if you want to suggest that Kun didn't defeat Ulic with the Force because he couldn't, that merely suggests how powerful Ulic is. Instead of lowering Kun, you should just raise Ulic. He has the feats and the hype to support his status as an immensely powerful Sith.

Uh, what? Nobody? You mean, nobody in this thread, right? I hope you don't mean nobody in general.......

Anakin isn't far stronger than Dooku in terms of force defenses, TK etc. Dooku was able to push him and Obi-Wan back at the same time without much effort. Kun is stronger than Skywalker is and has his amulet hax to draw upon.

And lol @ raising Anakin's pre-prime feats after using that as an example of what not to do. In RotS is Anakin demonstrating telekinetic superiority:

And being stronger doesn't necessitate the ability to ragdoll, certainly not to crippling effect.

Sure, by more powerful beings. It isn't that they didn't know how to block it, they were just overwhelmed. Like the Jedi were by Kun.

Kun was smothering them with his presence at the same time? Damn, that just makes it more impressive.

Given that, the fact that a group of Jedi trainees found themselves initially overwhelmed by the telekinetic might of a powerful Sith spirit (who would not be able to smother them with their presence in corporeal form) is unsurprising, when Jedi masters have failed to do better. But as the Kunts prefer to overlook, his attempt to dominate them was ultimately thwarted by Streen after which his power over them evaporated.

Pardon me everyone, but high tensions aside I do think that the point of Ob-Wan having..... much more susceptible force defenses than someone of his skill/caliber should have is worth mentioning. Also for anyone who's immediate response is to throw the burden of proof on me, I think I can honestly say in a high majority of his fights in even TCW series Obi-Wan holds his own or is even winning in a contest of lightsabers, but when the force is applied he is greatly affected.

I do think team two will pull the win with some difficulty, as both the combatants as such match-up well against Kenobi. Even if we used the more favorable match-up of of Anakin holding off Exar, it simply takes a bit longer for Ulic to take out Kenobi than it would Kun. And while admittedly an enraged Anakin would defeat Ulic, and challenge Kun, the two together more than make up enough raw power to defeat him 2v1.

Probably team one, unless Kun spams sorcery. It would be a good fight though and I don't see team 1 winning every time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As for him achieving "extreme" "enormous" powers, you've tried to peddle that shit already, however turned out you were making it up. 😂

Making it up? You mean in your delusional world it isn't relevant? ****ing comical.

She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

"Though Kun had enormous power, it seems that the key was that the other Jedi combined their might. They fought together as a unit where all the pieces fit together, as components in a much larger machine powered by the Force."
- Star Wars Jedi Academy Trilogy Volume 3 - Champions of the Force

An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood. He invented a glowing golden sphere that trapped the children of the Massassi and allowed him to feed off their energies.
- The New Essential Chronology

During the years he [Ulic] had transformed completely, into a warrior magus with dark powers far beyond those demonstrated by any other member of the Krath!
- Dark Empire Endnotes

Ulic was then confronted by another fallen Jedi, Exar Kun. As they engaged in a lightsaber battle, the Sith Amulets both Jedi wore began to glow, and they were visited by spirits of the Ancient Sith Lords who told them that Kun was the new Dark Lord of the Sith and Qel-Droma his first assistant. Years later, Ulic reappeared with tremendous dark side powers and set out to plunder and destroy large parts of the galaxy with a large and bloodthirsty army serving alongside Exar Kun.
- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

You tried claiming he did all of his alchemical explorations and ascension to masterhood brfore he faced Ulic, when we know he only created Massassi Abominations. He didn't create the Dark Reaper, the Golden Globe, Terentateks, Battle Hydras and all of the rest until after his conversion of the Jedi prodigies using Sith spirits in the Dark Holocron.

Stop peddling misinformation, Beni.

Nice, this evening's entertainment.

1. A general statement that proves absolutely nothing, not sure why you even brought it up. But I guess spamming quotes to cover your ass is the MO here.

2. Another general statement, made 4,000 years after Kun's death. We've no reason to assume he hadn't achieved much if not most of that "enormous" power by his duel with Ulic.

3. This quote only works against you, if you bothered to look into the contexts you'd have realised its dated prior to Kun leaving to confront Ulic, as I explained last time.

This time let me drive the point home:

Meaning he became an "extremely powerful figure", created various alchemic monsters and constructed the Golden Globe all before the aforementioned duel.

4. This refers to Ulic, not Kun. Like what? 😬

5. This quote also refers to Ulic, you appear to be confused, or just desperate, I'm not sure. But yeah, this isn't even prime Ulic he isn't able to ragdoll, good point.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You tried claiming he did all of his alchemical explorations and ascension to masterhood brfore he faced Ulic, when we know he only created Massassi Abominations.

The Massassi took Exar Kun prisoner and prepared to sacrifice him to a monstrous wyrm. Exar Kun was forced to use his growing connection to the dark side to free himself. Freedon Nadd appeared once more, congratulating his student. But Exar Kun had tired of Nadd's meddling and used his newfound strength to obliterate Nadd's spirit. Cowed, the Massassi bowed before Exar Kun as his slaves. Exar Kun's power grew. He ordered the Massassi to build immense temples and to seek out Naga Sadow's lost battleship. He also used Sith alchemy to create horrific monsters, including terentateks that hungered for the blood of Force users. But powerful as he was, he could sense a distant rival: Ulic Qel-Droma.

--The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Galactic History 55: The Ascension of Exar Kun

He didn't create the Dark Reaper, the Golden Globe, Terentateks, Battle Hydras and all of the rest until after his conversion of the Jedi prodigies using Sith spirits in the Dark Holocron.

Stop peddling misinformation, Beni.

So you're using mere generalisation statements regarding all of the sorcery and alchemical practices he underwent and using that to suggest he never underwent sorcery practices again. Despite the fact it flies directly in the face of the actual source material? You're always amusing Beni.

He only begins is alchemical works before facing Ulic, a basic understanding of the timeline might tell you that. Said beginnings were Massassi Abominations:

Although the Massassi pledged their loyalty to Exar Kun after he defeated the Sith wyrm, the Dark Jedi was still not satisfied. Filled with bitterness and spite, he swore to himself that he would make an example out of the warriors who had put him through his ordeal in the Temple of Fire. Furthermore, he realized that Naga Sadow had not gone far enough when he altered the Massassi. While they made excellent forest warriors, they were not prepared for the highpowered ordnance they would have to face when fighting the forces of the Republic. Exar Kun rejoiced when he discovered the giant alchemical machine that had belonged to Naga Sadow. At last, he had the means to shape his Massassi servants as he needed them, and he knew just the Massassi on whom he could experiment: Zythmnr, the priest who had ordered Kun to be sacrificed.

The Sith disciple first altered Zythmnr physically, fusing the old priest's skin with metallic bioarmor and enhancing the Massassi's skeletal structure and musculature accordingly. Vicious claws became razored gauntlets, thick hide became hardened plating, and Zythmnr's head was encased in a shelled helmet. The process was excruciating for the Massassi. He not only survived, but also continued to worship Kun, willfully insisting the experiments continue.

Exar Kun was more than happy to comply. He took his next step: infusing his new warrior with the dark side using some of his own physical makeup as a template. When Zythmnr readily took to the treatment-and even showed potential with Force skills-Kun chose several more "volunteers" to continue his work. Before long, he had several dozen living weapons that exuded the raw power and energy of the dark side. Upon feeling their power firsthand, the Jedi called them "abominations." Kun would take many of these bestial servants on his quests for Sith knowledge. In a few cases, he even left a handful of his favorite warriors behind to terrorize any that might oppose him. While the Jedi believed that all of the Massassi abominations died with their people, there may yet be descendants of this hideous species stranded on some remote, forgotten world.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook

Exar Kun didn't create the Dark Reaper until after he'd fought Ulic Qel-Droma, who takes the weapon to numerous republic bases including Raxus Prime:

Ulic unleashed the Dark Reaper against hundreds of Republic troops on the outpost of Raxus Prime.
- The New Essential Chronology

Nor does he bring Tuk'ata to his stronghold across the galaxy until well after:

Exar Kun was especially fond of the creatures and personally brought them to the Massassi temples of Yavin 4.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook

Your failing to understand that the war took years after Ulic returned to the galaxy as a Sith Lord, and that they both increased drastically afterwards, is your's alone.

I also see that you ignore the fact Exar Kun is stated to be undisputed in his title and that not only Freedon Nadd but the sourcebooks, all unquestionably place Exar Kun as by far the most powerful individual in his time:

She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.
-_The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

"You(Ulic) will be one of the great ones-- and there is another(Exar Kun) even greater than you."
- Freedon Nadd, Tales of the Jedi Omnibus: Dark Lords of the Sith

More interesting to me however, is that you'd prefer Exar Kun was already extremely powerful and became even more so after the fact:

The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years...
- The New Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology

Locked within it's recesses, accessible only to a Dark Lord of the Sith, are the forgotten histories and lore, dating back a hundred thousand years and more.
- Odan-Urr, Tales of the Jedi Omnibus Volume 2

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.
- Tales of the Jedi Omnibus Volume 2

Exar Kun might not have risen to power so quickly had Odan-Urr destroyed the Sith Holocron when he’d had the chance.
- Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

This war was caused by a student of mine, Exar Kun, who found forbidden teachings of the ancient Sith. [...] With this knowledge, Exar Kun established a vast and powerful brotherhood and claimed the title of first Dark Lord of the Sith.
- Vodo Siosk-Baas, Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Odan-Urr kept this Sith Holocron for nearly a millennium before it was stolen by the Jedi Exar Kun, who used it to learn many secrets of the Sith.
- Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

I might adopt your stance actually, Exar Kun, years before his prime, was an extremely powerful figure, before obtaining the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos, gaining immense knowledge, which made him even more powerful.

Thanks, Beni. 👆

Damn.

If only the phrase "extremely powerful" meant anything mmm

In all seriousness, as relative a term as it may be, a very few select people have ever been afforded that high an accolade.

Damn. 👆

Ant, keep an eye on CV, I'm sure you'll know what I refer to when you see it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
In all seriousness, as relative a term as it may be, a very few select people have ever been afforded that high an accolade.

Kyp Durron included. 🙂

Kyp struck at me again through the Force, but I expected it this time. I relaxed and let the Force energy flow over and through me. I absorbed enough of it to let me create a shield that split the attack. The fact that I didn't end up being ground back against the wall surprised him.

"You're good, Kyp, but you're not great." I held my hands up in a non-threatening gesture. "You're involved with someone who lost a long time ago. Don't compound his error."

"And who will stop me?"

I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves. It took me a second or two to figure out that the echo wasn't a purely auditory phenomenon. I was hearing Kyp's voice through my ears, but the undertones were coming to me through the Force. We were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.

"I will, if you make it necessary."

An ancient sneer of contempt twisted Kyp's features. "Puny Jedi, you are of no concern to me."

Even though I braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous Force blows were like light breezes compared with a full-out gale. I slammed back into the wall with a teeth-rattling impact. As my body absorbed Force energy and fed it back out, the shield I'd created grew in size. More importantly, my surprise and survival instinct opened me up to the Force and allowed it to flow into the shield. Even so, Kyp's attack jammed the shield back against the wall and I watched stone crumble beneath its rim.

The safe area I had began to shrink, and my chest became tight as it compressed my ribs. I looked Kyp straight in the eyes and tried to shoot into his brain the image of the mask of hate he wore, but the world around me went black before I could tell if I'd had any success at all.
- Star Wars: I, Jedi Audiobook

He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kype felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt. Kyp felt larger, a part of the jungle moon, then a part of the entire planetary system, until he burrowed into the heart of the gas giant itself.
- Jedi Academy Trilogy Volume 2: Dark Apprentice

Noting that the first feat was only some of Exar Kun's power compared to Kyp Durron's, as Exar Kun masked the entire fight from Master Luke Skywalker and an entire dining hall of Jedi, just fifteen meters away:

"What happened to you?"
"Kyp didn't like the menu." I winced as a twing rang through my ribs. "We had a discussion in the hallway, you didn't feel anything?" Heads all around the hallway shook, and I felt a cold dread begin to congeal in my stomach. If Exar Kun could mask the attack on me in such a way that Master Skywalker could not feel it barely fifteen meters away, then we were up against something more powerful than I'd cared to imagine existing.
- Star Wars: I, Jedi Audiobook

All very interesting, isn't it, Deronn?

Originally posted by AncientPower
So you're using mere generalisation statements regarding all of the sorcery and alchemical practices he underwent and using that to suggest he never underwent sorcery practices again. Despite the fact it flies directly in the face of the actual source material? You're always amusing Beni.

He only begins is alchemical works before facing Ulic, a basic understanding of the timeline might tell you that. Said beginnings were Massassi Abominations

Exar Kun didn't create the Dark Reaper until after he'd fought Ulic Qel-Droma, who takes the weapon to numerous republic bases including Raxus Prime

Nor does he bring Tuk'ata to his stronghold across the galaxy until well after

Your failing to understand that the war took years after Ulic returned to the galaxy as a Sith Lord, and that they both increased drastically afterwards, is your's alone.

But to correct your latest error, the duel between Ulic and Kun took place in 3,997 BBY, the Sith War beginning in 3,996 BBY. Assuming your numerical skills are no better than your reading skills, that's one year later, not several.

I also see that you ignore the fact Exar Kun is stated to be undisputed in his title and that not only Freedon Nadd but the sourcebooks, all unquestionably place Exar Kun as by far the most powerful individual in his time

More interesting to me however, is that you'd prefer Exar Kun was already extremely powerful and became even more so after the fact.

I might adopt your stance actually, Exar Kun, years before his prime, was an extremely powerful figure, before obtaining the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos, gaining immense knowledge, which made him even more powerful.

Thanks, Beni. 👆

EDIT: As an addendum to that last point, it certainly didn't appear to be the case for Dooku.