Originally posted by Galan007
^ So we're supposed to take some random guy's word on the internet at face value now?
At the very least it isn't baseless like the argument that "it's a reference to the writers."
Originally posted by Astner
At the very least it isn't baseless like the argument that "it's a reference to the writers."
Don't forget that while Carey is a phenomenal writer and created a great story, he is far from the only authority on the matter.
e.g. Grant Morrison established God as the avatar of the writer long before Carey came along.
^^ When did Morrison establish the Presence as the avatar of the writers?
Originally posted by CogitoThe Primal Monitor is meta-fictional, representing the blank page.
Marvel has no corresponding concept in its cosmology.
I know of even just aspects of TOAA who can manifest blank pages at whim.
Originally posted by CogitoGod/The Presence (DC) represents the avatar for the DC writers,
just as God/TOAA is the same for Marvel.
TOAA is the fictional representation of the real world writers/artists.
The Presence is definitely not that description. The Presence is represented in a purely fictional fashion.
Originally posted by Cogito
Don't forget that while Carey is a phenomenal writer and created a great story, he is far from the only authority on the matter.
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ When did Morrison establish the Presence as the avatar of the writers?
I don't have the whole thing, Galan can probably fill you in if he wants
Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel has met-fictional comedy in their world too.I know of even just aspects of TOAA who can manifest blank pages at whim.
Originally posted by Mr MasterI don't see the difference.
I disagree.TOAA is the fictional representation of the real world writers/artists.
The Presence is definitely not that description. The Presence is represented in a purely fictional fashion.
Astner - For some reason I can't quote you
If God is already defined, we can't so easily turn that upside down. Especially not with a f'ing vague Tweet
Originally posted by CogitoI don't have the whole thing, Galan can probably fill you in if he wants
That's the fictional representation of the writer/artist via an illustrated avatar.
The Presence doesn't speak or relate these "real world" concepts/understandings as the Morrison avatar.
Originally posted by CogitoThe blank page is literally that. An artist or writer cannot create it, it already exists. It's all the emptiness/potential on which works are created.
That aside, these meat-fictional concepts don't mesh with art that's constricted to comicbook laws. Pointless really imo.
Originally posted by "Id"Don't care.
I know CBG personally.Not so random. And he has worked for DC, he was commissioned to published an entry for the thier Handbook, specifically Crisis on Infinite Earths.
If writer interviews aren't admissible here, then some random guy's posts certainly are not. Pasting one of his posts like it's supposed to mean something is... Kind of funny, actually.
Originally posted by AstnerExactly.
As far as the original Lucifer series is concerned—which is the only story that mentions creation of the Presence—he is. If Mike Carey didn't intend for that story concept to reference writers then it's disingenuous to present it as if it was intended to be a reference to the writers.
Originally posted by Galan007
Don't care.If writer interviews aren't admissible here, then some random guy's posts certainly are not. Pasting one of his posts like it's supposed to mean something is... Kind of funny, actually.
Indeed. In fact the entire notion of God being shaped by his own creation is entirely contradictory to the premise of the Lucifer series.
To recap:
- God is "infinite and eternal" (as stated by himself).
- Everything occurs according to "the plan", which God of course knows in it's entirety because he's God. God knows everything that will ever happen because it's all predetermined and he's omniscient
- God created everything, including dreamers and the dreaming
- If dreamers are shaping God, then they're doing so according to his plan
- If God is being shaped according to his plan and his creations, then he's not shaped by "external forces"
QED
Originally posted by "Id"
Topic still stands. Is Yahew or the Presence the be all end all of DC?If so why?
If not, why not and if not him who is?
Originally posted by Galan007
Don't care.If writer interviews aren't admissible here, then some random guy's posts certainly are not. Pasting one of his posts like it's supposed to mean something is... Kind of funny, actually.
The bottom line of the argument being presented is the "Forces External" that molded Yahweh, and that Licifer knows well who he speaks off are tied to the in comic reference & theroy in that Cat arc is which dreams of men reshaped creation retconning the timeline and establishing Yahweh as the supreme creator for said series.
Weather this arc is conttrodicting or conflicting is not the main point. Whats established is thier are external forces greater than Yahweh, and Lucifer knows of them.
Unless evidence is brought forward to reveal who or what those Forces External are, its all guess work. And guess work from a fan on this Forum is no better than the explanatation of the writer.
Originally posted by Cogito
Yes, he is. Whether he's omnipotent in DC because writers say so or because at times he's the comic book avatar of the writers doesn't matter. At the end of the day it's the same thing - he's top dog. Nothing has ever truly contradicted that.
Originally posted by zopzopAnd there are beings in Marvel that predate its creation (e.g. Oblivion). That does not mean the Presence has any less power.
Except he's not. There's even things in DC/Vertigo that PREDATE his creation and were NOT created by him or his proxies. Whoops!
Take the example of the Silk Man. He claims predate creation, but practically shit the bed in fear when a completely depowered Lucifer came near. Would his existence challenge God's power?
Also, just because some beings may be from before the current creation, that does not mean they pre-date God. There are mentions of previous creations (of God's).
Originally posted by zopzop
Except he's not. There's even things in DC/Vertigo that PREDATE his creation and were NOT created by him or his proxies. Whoops!
So what? That is the nature of everything, the universe collapses back into the void, and then it starts again. The whole point in Lucifer and his father talking at the end, was he wanted to be his own maker, when Lucifer told him, "You seem to have managed well enough", he envies that about his father.
Even Imperiex-Prime was shaped by the events in OWAW. It happens to everyone no matter how powerful, and everyone has a part to play.
Originally posted by Cogito
And there are beings in Marvel that predate its creation (e.g. Oblivion). That does not mean the Presence has any less power.Take the example of the Silk Man. He claims predate creation, but practically shit the bed in fear when a completely depowered Lucifer came near. Would his existence challenge God's power?
Also, just because some beings may be from before the current creation, that does not mean they pre-date God. There are mentions of previous creations (of God's).
Originally posted by kevdude
So what? That is the nature of everything, the universe collapses back into the void, and then it starts again. The whole point in Lucifer and his father talking at the end, was he wanted to be his own maker, when Lucifer told him, "You seem to have managed well enough", he envies that about his father.Even Imperiex-Prime was shaped by the events in OWAW. It happens to everyone no matter how powerful, and everyone has a part to play.
Ergo, he's not supreme since by definition there can be nothing not created by God or his proxies. Silk Man was from a previous OLDER creation NOT created by Yahweh or his proxies. Whoops!