The Outlander is a veteran of the Great Galactic War that lasted 28 years. He is also a veteran of the subsequent Cold War and numerous other events that collectively lasted several more years. I am not sure what makes Darth Vader more experienced and proficient duelist than the Outlander. The latter would have encountered many Sith in the battlefield and is revered for his exploits.
Yeah, somehow, I doubt the Outlander actually participated Great Galactic War for obvious reasons. That aside, Darth Vader was one of, if not, the greatest hero, of one of the most prolific conflicts of all time in The Clone Wars. After Order 66, and becoming a Dark Lord, Vader was in charge of killing the "renegade" Jedi that survived the purge, and in doing so, earned the title of "the greatest Jedi killer" of all-time by no other than Darth Sidious himself. All of this while training various powerhouse Force sensitives (Galen Marek, Lumiya). So for, like, 24 straight years, Vader was in endless conflict, after conflict. The Outlanders experience is good and all, but I'd give Vader the edge there for simply doing it longer, against comparable competition.
As for skill, Vader stalemating TFU II Starkiller in someone who has/was:
- "Perfected" ligtsaber combat and stated to be "virtually unstoppable in combat"
- A high level master of multiple lightsaber forms - including and probably not limited to: Juyo, Shien and Soresu.
- Plowed through hordes/armies highly skilled Royal Guards/Shadow Guards before besting TFU I Darth Vader, who still had high quality skill feats under his belt
This is before Darth Vader became "far more formidable" combatant overall. The feat, in conjunction with power-scaling, supersedes anything Outlander has done, IMO. From a technical standpoint, Vader was able to utterly, and effectively blend multiple lightsaber styles to form a single, hybrid style, again, something I find more impressive than what
Darth Vader's (presumed) superiority in Telekinesis is largely irrelevant in this contest because the gap is not large.
LAL. "Presumed". The Outlander's TK feats aren't on Darth Vaders level. Period. There's really no ifs, ands, or buts about it, frankly. Accolade wise, The Outlanders loses their too.
Darth Vader had his moments with Starkiller but he failed to defeat the latter when it mattered.
Simply put, Vader wasn't powerful enough to strictly best Starkiller through The Force at that time. Not to mention, Vader was trying to turn Starkiller rather than best him. That's why he lowered his guard, and suffered the lost he did against SK in TFU II. Regardless, it doesn't matter since 'Killers TK is clearly > Outlanders, so yeah.
Similarly, Darth Vader failed to defeat Luke Skywalker when it mattered.
You mean a conflicted Vader that never even bothered to use TK the entire time? Luke admitted multiple times through out TCoPL that Vader was never trying to kill him, only turn him. Via Luke, this is what the results what have been had Vader wanted him dead:
She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him?some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.
---Excerpt taken from The Courtship of Princess Leia
The Outlander's combative strategy is different from that of Starkiller. If he is Light Side, then he is not fond of disintegrating stuff around him.[ /QUOTE]Sounds like an appeal to ignorance to me, yeah. Substantiate The Outlander sharing parity with 'Killer in TK with actual feats and accolades.
[QUOTE]Darth Vader doesn't have any advantage here.
😂 We'll just have to disagree there.
To clarify my stance - I'm not stating I believe Vader could defeat The Outlander with a TK attack, but it can, and in my opinion, will, create the breaches/openings in the Outlanders defenses he needs, to end him with a saber strike.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Simply put, Vader wasn't powerful enough to strictly best Starkiller through The Force at that time. Not to mention, Vader was trying to turn Starkiller rather than best him. That's why he lowered his guard, and suffered the lost he did against SK in TFU II. Regardless, it doesn't matter since 'Killers TK is clearly > Outlanders, so yeah.
Vader threw the duel in TFU II.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I noticed that too in a codex about the Hero of Tython. That's a typo.The Outlander's a veteran of the *Galactic War*, not the Great Galactic War.
It's also possible they're just mashing the two conflicts together.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, somehow, I doubt the Outlander actually participated Great Galactic War for obvious reasons. That aside, Darth Vader was one of, if not, the greatest hero, of one of the most prolific conflicts of all time in The Clone Wars. After Order 66, and becoming a Dark Lord, Vader was in charge of killing the "renegade" Jedi that survived the purge, and in doing so, earned the title of "the greatest Jedi killer" of all-time by no other than Darth Sidious himself. All of this while training various powerhouse Force sensitives (Galen Marek, Lumiya). So for, like, 24 straight years, Vader was in endless conflict, after conflict. The Outlanders experience is good and all, but I'd give Vader the edge there for simply doing it longer, against comparable competition.
However, the Outlander appears to be a veteran of three major wars:-
1. The Cold War
2. Dread War
3. Eternal Empire War
- and a number of conflicts of smaller scale in-between.
Darth Vader is a veteran of The Clone Wars but his opponents were predominantly droids in this war. Other then droids, he came across and fought only a few individuals of note such as Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, Count Dooku, Cin Drallig and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Darth Vader encountered additional individuals of note during OT era.
For the sake of argument, let us assume that Hero of Tython is the Outlander. His opponents were predominantly Sith, Dark Jedi, Imperial Guard and Knights of Zakuul. He also came across and fought scores of individuals of note.
Generally speaking, both Darth Vader and Hero of Tython are revered for their exploits in the battlefield and renowned for their skills with a Lightsaber. But I don't see solid grounds for the assumption of Darth Vader being relatively more experienced and proficient duelist. In-fact, the Outlander faced relatively higher quality (and diverse) opposition and dealt with superior odds.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
As for skill, Vader stalemating TFU II Starkiller in someone who has/was:- "Perfected" ligtsaber combat and stated to be "virtually unstoppable in combat"
- A high level master of multiple lightsaber forms - including and probably not limited to: Juyo, Shien and Soresu.
- Plowed through hordes/armies highly skilled Royal Guards/Shadow Guards before besting TFU I Darth Vader, who still had high quality skill feats under his beltThis is before Darth Vader became "far more formidable" combatant overall. The feat, in conjunction with power-scaling, supersedes anything Outlander has done, IMO. From a technical standpoint, Vader was able to utterly, and effectively blend multiple lightsaber styles to form a single, hybrid style, again, something I find more impressive than what
Hero of Tython defeated Lord Praven in single combat (years before his prime). Lord Praven is officially counted among the greatest warriors of the Empire, with history of defeating one of the greatest duelists of the Jedi Order in Jedi Master Usma. Later on, Hero of Tython also stalemated the first Emperor's Wrath (an expert swordsman with Shatterpoint abilities and combat experience encompassing thousands of Jedi and Sith in a span of 3 centuries) in a duel. Years later, he met his match in Arcann but eventually overcame him as well. In the nutshell, Hero of Tython's progression is also remarkable.
Ponder over the equation:-
Jedi Master Usma (one of the finest duelists of the Order) < Lord Praven (one of the finest warriors of the Empire) < Emperor's Wrath < Arcann <= Hero of Tython (the Outlander)
You can't get much better then that, my friend. 🙂
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
LAL. "Presumed". The Outlander's TK feats aren't on Darth Vaders level. Period. There's really no ifs, ands, or buts about it, frankly. Accolade wise, The Outlanders loses their too.
The Outlander is one of the protagonists (presumably Hero of Tython) whose powers and skills are largely unknown in writing at the moment. In contrast, Darth Vader is a well-defined and explored character. You can cite a large number of feats of Darth Vader but you won't find much in regards to the Outlander in this area.
The Outlander might be capable of collapsing buildings, moving Starships and vice versa. However, we are forced to evaluate him on the basis of his opposition. If the Outlander is powerful enough to contend with the likes of Arcann and Vaylin, we can assume him to be Darth Vader TIER in the aspect of Force powers at minimum.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Simply put, Vader wasn't powerful enough to strictly best Starkiller through The Force at that time. Not to mention, Vader was trying to turn Starkiller rather than best him. That's why he lowered his guard, and suffered the lost he did against SK in TFU II. Regardless, it doesn't matter since 'Killers TK is clearly > Outlanders, so yeah.
Galen Marek soundly defeated Darth Vader in a duel. Starkiller was a clone of Galen Marek and possibly not as strong.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
You mean a conflicted Vader that never even bothered to use TK the entire time? Luke admitted multiple times through out TCoPL that Vader was never trying to kill him, only turn him. Via Luke, this is what the results what have been had Vader wanted him dead:---Excerpt taken from The Courtship of Princess Leia
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thoughts-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
Taken from Return of the Jedi
&
By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker had studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan’s journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker’s unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star[…] and his lightsaber technique is so superb that he is able to duel the Dark Lord on even footing - and finally able to defeat a man who is a powerful living product of the ancient Jedi sword traditions from time immemorial. Such an achievement with little formal training is a testament to Skywalker’s innate abilities and instinctive skill.
Taken from Fightsaber
Luke Skywalker's thoughts on the matter appear to be grounded in his fears and feelings. I doubt that Darth Vader's superiority in Telekinesis would have made much difference in this duel.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
😂 We'll just have to disagree there.To clarify my stance - I'm not stating I believe Vader could defeat The Outlander with a TK attack, but it can, and in my opinion, will, create the breaches/openings in the Outlanders defenses he needs, to end him with a saber strike.
HoT > Wrath.
Originally posted by FreshestSliceThe problem with that logic is that we already have showings on this in the cutscenes. In one instance, HoT finds himself on his knees, and in the other, he finds himself on the floor just to avoid a TK blast.
During the fight? Like I get it's gameplay. That within itself doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Yes. Really.Nothing suggests that it was a one-sided duel, Freshest.
If this surprises you, you haven't been paying attention.Isn't it ironic that I'm more reluctant to place HoT above Vader than you?
Originally posted by Sinious
HoT > Wrath.
The problem with that logic is that we already have showings on this in the cutscenes. In one instance, HoT finds himself on his knees, and in the other, he finds himself on the floor just to avoid a TK blast.
Nothing suggests that it was a one-sided duel, Freshest.
Isn't it ironic that I'm more reluctant to place HoT above Vader than you?
Originally posted by FreshestSliceYeah, except the cutscenes are a more reliable source than your assumptions regarding what happens between them and on both instances in the cutscenes, Arcann gets an advantage via applying force powers in the battle. These Force attacks aren't unconventional sorcery alike attacks. It's telekinesis which is probably the most explicit contest of displaying raw power. HoT fails to resist his first attack in a similar fashion to their first fight, but one can find a way to come up with excuses for HoT there. When Arcann sends that TK blast though, HoT literally had no excuse to not stand his ground against it if he was indeed more powerful.
No.This actually makes zero ****ing sense. Arcann's obviously not ragdolling anymore. The fact that he gets hits in doesn't imply some sort of superiority or a lack of defense on the HoT's part.
I think Arcann is very powerful. The fact that he could ragdoll HoT in the first place is crazy, so it's not that surprising that he still has an edge in the Force. The way I see it, HoT finally reached the power to stand his ground against Arcann's superior power for long enough to win in a duel.
He lost. That's the definition of one sided.Arguably the stupidest thing you've ever said.
Obviously Arcann had a chance to win. Everyone has a chance to win. It was never in doubt who would win this confrontation however.that's the entire point of the Chapter.I'm not talking about chances, buddy. The plot never revealed anything about the gap between Arcann and Outlander as combatants. HoT being destined to defeat Arcann doesn't cancel out the possibility of a great fight between them.
Not really. You also thought it was ironic Ant thinks Anakin can defeat Revan, when everyone else thought it was anything but.Don't recall that, but that sounds like a joke about Ant' symbolic affiliation with Revan. Here, I was referring to how you tend to sacrifice your SWTOR wank for your Vader wank, and here I'm kinda doing the opposite.
Originally posted by FreshestSliceLol the same shit happened in their last fight yet he was getting ragdolled. 😬
During the fight? Like I get it's gameplay. That within itself doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Also Arcann is driving the Outlander back in the last cutscene, it was clearly not one sided.
Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah, except the cutscenes are a more reliable source than your assumptions regarding what happens between them and on both instances in the cutscenes, Arcann gets an advantage via applying force powers in the battle. These Force attacks aren't unconventional sorcery alike attacks. It's telekinesis which is probably the most explicit contest of displaying raw power. HoT fails to resist his first attack in a similar fashion to their first fight, but one can find a way to come up with excuses for HoT there. When Arcann sends that TK blast though, HoT literally had no excuse to not stand his ground against it if he was indeed more powerful.
Based on my play-through, I have come to realize that cut-scenes do not tell us much.
You get to see the opening salvo (in which the [boss] opponent typically dominates the protagonist) and/or the outcome (in which the opponent is on his knees). Sometimes, a glimpse of the turning point in the confrontation (mid-duel) is also shown but this is not common.
The opening salvo gives us the impression that this is not a strictly one-sided confrontation but it can also mislead the audience.
In short, cut-scenes do not tell us the whole story. Yes, we see the Outlander evading one of the TK blasts of Arcann in a cut-scene but this might have been an instinctual response from the Outlander during that particular moment.
It is foolish to assume that the Outlander cannot tank Arcann's powers head-on, as formidable as they are. The Outlander eventually defeated Arcann. You can't expect (only) your skills with a Lightsaber to lead you to victory against such a powerful opponent.