Luke Skywalker & Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Count Dooku & Arcann

@Nova I'm well aware how Mace's ability works in Legends. The facts are the following tho:

>Gillard defines the difference between two tiers like the margin between TPM and ROTS Kenobi.
>Gillard says turning to the dark side jumps you past other tier 8s.

On one hand nobody outclasses Kenobi in skill only to the extent of 1 Gillard tier, not Dooku, not Yoda, not ****ing Sidious, not even Luke.
On the other hand, falling to the dark side doesn't improve your skill with the blade, only your augmentation. (Dooku improved in skill not because he fall to the dark side, but because over a decade decade passed.)

For the last time Gilllard's ranking is about overall combative effectiveness, not skill only.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Gilllard's ranking is about overall combative effectiveness, not skill only.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan

For the last time Gilllard's ranking is about overall combative effectiveness, not skill only.

Well yeah, but in a Sabers only fight.

Pretty sure it doesn't include the advantage Yoda/Sidious have over Mace/Anakin with their TK/FL Prowess.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Filoni's commentary and the official website descriptions are 2 different things, so you can't quote one to explain the other. Unless Filoni wrote the official site description.

That's what we do all the time here.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
@Nova I'm well aware how Mace's ability works in Legends. The facts are the following tho:

>Gillard defines the difference between two tiers like the margin between TPM and ROTS Kenobi.
>Gillard says turning to the dark side jumps you past other tier 8s.

On one hand nobody outclasses Kenobi in skill only to the extent of 1 Gillard tier, not Dooku, not Yoda, not ****ing Sidious, not even Luke.

Based on what?

On the other hand, falling to the dark side doesn't improve your skill with the blade, only your augmentation. (Dooku improved in skill not because he fall to the dark side, but because over a decade decade passed.)

"However, once Dooku left the Jedi Order to become an apprentice to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, his skills became even more formidable."

Doesn't seem like it.

For the last time Gilllard's ranking is about overall combative effectiveness, not skill only.

I already addressed this. This is sabers only, which includes skill, physicals, mental state, everything. Whatever Gillard's using as his measuring stick is applicable here, since you agreed that he's not taking Force powers into consideration.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's what we do all the time here.

It's fine using 2 different valid sources to work out the Canon position of something, but you can't just use 1 source to interpret commentary from a completely different and unrelated source.

The episode description just describes what we see in the episode, with perhaps a little more insight. And we clearly see Sidious toying with Maul after killing Savage by bashing him around after he's disarmed. So any more toying on top of the senseless bashing, requires further proof.

And we have that if we put that commentary and combine it with Filoni's, because then it seems clear Sidious could have done that to Maul at any time in the fight post Savage's death, given we know he could have Force stomped Maul anytime he liked.

None of that however hints at just how much Sidious was holding back in Sabers. That is down to speculation tbh. Either way, since we know Sidious was holding back, we can't take any Maul/Savage feats from that fight without an external confirmation. Which we got when Filoni confirmed Savage put up a better fight against Sidious than Fisto, Tiin or Kolar. And since we know Maul > Savage, that confirmation makes Maul look good as well.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's fine using 2 different valid sources to work out the Canon position of something, but you can't just use 1 source to interpret commentary from a completely different and unrelated source.

The episode description just describes what we see in the episode, with perhaps a little more insight. And we clearly see Sidious toying with Maul after killing Savage by bashing him around after he's disarmed.

However if we put that commentary and combine it with Filoni's, then it seems like Sidious could have done that to Maul at any time in the fight post Savage's death, given we know he could have Force stomped Maul anytime he liked.

None of that however hints at just how much Sidious was holding back in Sabers. That is down to speculation tbh. Either way, since we know Sidious was holding back, we can't take any Maul/Savage feats from that fight without an external confirmation. Which we got when Filoni confirmed Savage put up a better fight against Sidious than Fisto, Tiin or Kolar. And since we know Maul > Savage, that confirmation makes Maul look good as well.

Savage putting up a better fight than being blitzed isn't much of a compliment.

And we also know from Filoni that the brothers can't actually touch Sidious and that he doesn't go all-out until the end. So yeah, no matter how you want to cut it, he holds back against Maul in sabers.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Savage putting up a better fight than being blitzed isn't much of a compliment.

It is, because those 3 were 3 of the greatest Jedi in the Order.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And we also know from Filoni that the brothers can't actually touch Sidious

Well how could they, when they can't even resist his Force Pin against the wall? Lol

Originally posted by SunRazer
So yeah, no matter how you want to cut it, he holds back against Maul in sabers.

I didn't say he didn't. In fact I said we can't take any visual feat from Maul or Savage in that fight without external confirmation, because we know Sidious held back.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It is, because those 3 were 3 of the greatest Jedi in the Order.

That he's better than them is a compliment, if you choose to take it that way, but that he did better than getting speedblitzed isn't much of a compliment.

Well how could they, when they can't even resist his Force Pin against the wall? Lol

It's obvious then that the hits that Maul & Savage landed were inconsequential and probably allowed by Sidious.

I didn't say he didn't. In fact I said we can't take any visual feat from Maul or Savage in that fight without external confirmation, because we know Sidious held back.

So you agree with me on the fact that Sidious held back and that Maul's kick was inconsequential? That's about it, really.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"However, once Dooku left the Jedi Order to become an apprentice to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, his skills became even more formidable."

Doesn't seem like it.

Lmao. Prove it was instantaneous and thanks to his fall to the dark side, not over time and thanks to Sidious' teachings.

Gaining lightsaber skill boost when falling to the dark side never happened and doesn't make any sense.

^ Also that quote doesn't say "Saber" skills. Learning Force Lightning was a new "Skill" for Dooku.

Originally posted by SunRazer

So you agree with me on the fact that Sidious held back and that Maul's kick was inconsequential? That's about it, really.

Yeah of course.

I was just disagreeing with your use of the sources to prove that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Also that quote doesn't say "Saber" skills. Learning Force Lightning was a new "Skill" for Dooku.

I didn't provide context, but the quote's referring to lightsaber abilities. The entire article's on it, IIRC.

Yeah of course.

I was just disagreeing with your use of the sources to prove that.

Well, whether you use the website or Filoni, it's clear that Sidious toyed with Maul.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao. Prove it was instantaneous and thanks to his fall to the dark side, not over time and thanks to Sidious' teachings.

Gaining lightsaber skill boost when falling to the dark side never happened and doesn't make any sense.

I assume your neglect of my other points was intentional and constitutes a concession.

For this, I'm saying that the quote doesn't seem to align with your view that he improved in skill by just practicing for another decade. I mean, it specifically mentions that Dooku leaving the Order and joining Sidious resulted in his improved skill. Whether that refers to an inherent boost from falling to the dark side or Sidious' teachings is up for discussion, but it's obviously not just regular practice, otherwise the quote would never go out of it's way to mention those things.

Also, there's plenty of examples of Jedi growing more skilled upon falling to the dark side, but I agree that it's not instantaneous.

Still, references to a swordsman as a whole fit my stance on this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I assume your neglect of my other points was intentional and constitutes a concession.

And I assume you trying to twist and force your viewpoint on a quote because it's not overly explicit is a sign of desperation. Dooku is not tier 9 on the Gillard scale and never will be.

Based on what? An out-of-context quote that suggests he was too afraid to even strike at Obi-Wan? Other than the fact that it's out-of-context and Dooku proceeds to strike Obi-Wan twice afterwards, even if we're taking it completely at face value and ignoring context, it's merely one extreme of the spectrum. Another extreme depicts Dooku effortlessly KO'ing Obi-Wan whilst dueling Anakin. I think it's easiest to just take the average here.

You haven't addressed my comparison between his fight with Yoda and Maul's fight with Sidious, nor Yoda's belief that Dooku is >= to Mace on neutral ground as of Dark Rendezvous. He's tier 9. You're using desperate lowballing to try and get Obi-Wan on his level. He can obviously compete and give Dooku hell, but he's not winning a round. You've yet to prove it.

If anything is desparate here is your fan wanking. Gillard's list is not skill only that's what I base it on.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If anything is desparate here is your fan wanking. Gillard's list is not skill only that's what I base it on.

When it's a thread involving Obi-Wan and/or Legacy, you don't have the right to call anybody out for fanwanking. And I've wanked Obi-Wan pretty damn hard in the past, far more than you could possibly imagine, lol. The idea that I'm naturally biased against my favorite Jedi character or that I'd wank Dooku harder than Obi-Wan (considering that Obi-Wan is a character I like even more than Dooku) is hilarious.

I've already accepted that it's referring to more than just skill, which is why I've brought up evidence that isn't skill-only. Gillard's quote, my evidence, and my stance are all applicable to a sabers-only contest like this, which isn't just skill-only.

You've repeatedly ran away from my examples, so either shut up with the shitty banter or actually talk about the examples that I've brought up. Otherwise, I'm squeezing water out of a stone.

You mean how you also ignore how Dooku was stomped or would get stomped by tier 9s? Yeah I guess I ignored your examples, because they have nothing to do with our debate.

You must be incredibly dumb if you don't even know what we are debating here.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You mean how you also ignore how Dooku was stomped or would get stomped by tier 9s?

Sources directly state that Dooku held his own against Yoda on Geonosis. And Yoda has him as equal to Mace.

Yeah I guess I ignored your examples, because they have nothing to do with our debate.

Because our debate's to do with how fast Marilyn Monroe can swim the 4 x 100m medley, yeah.

Tell me how Dooku holding his own against Yoda in saber combat which isn't just skill, or Yoda ranking Dooku on par with/better than Mace in overall swordsmanship isn't relevant here. Or how Dooku doing decidedly better against a tier 9 than an equal of Obi-Wan did whilst profusely enraged isn't relevant here.

You must be incredibly dumb if you don't even know what we are debating here.

Tough talk coming from a used condom. Are you even keeping up with this discussion, or are you just here to throw around insults and keep up your reputation for stupidity?

You've tried to remind me three or four times now that Gillard's list isn't skill-only, yet you've failed to realize that I've already caught up and am now debating overall swordsmanship, not just sheer skill. The only person who's failed to keep up here and deserves a Darwin award for Excellence is you.

Yoda was holding back on Geonosis. Mace is tier 9 based on his fight with Sidious, not his standing in Y: DR.

Anakin, a tier 9 stomped the shit out of Dooku.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yoda was holding back on Geonosis. Mace is tier 9 based on his fight with Sidious, not his standing in Y: DR.

Sidious was holding back against Maul, too, and was literally toying with him. Even Yoda didn't go that far. Yet in spite of that, Dooku outperformed a heavily enraged Maul, who I assume you'll accept as an equal of Obi-Wan.

Mace's standing in RotS & Y: DR is the same. There's a reason why Gillard mentions how Obi-Wan and Anakin have gone up but don't do the same for anyone else.

Anakin, a tier 9 stomped the shit out of Dooku.

The only stomp was when he got enraged. Otherwise, in spite of Stover's flowery hyperbole, Dooku was still defending himself against all of Anakin's attacks and a moment of respite was all he needed to wash away his fatigue.

And in alternate takes on the RotS fight, they're dead even until Anakin gets enraged.

That's hardly evidence, that's just means one was holding back more than the other. Unless you have an exact percentage of course. Yoda also beat Dooku on a powerful DS nexus...

Funny how you shift stance. I remember when you were strongly preaching how Mace was amped out of his mind when he fought Sidious, yet now you think he's Sidious tier without it just to wank Dooku further.

Anakin was pummeling Dooku's shit in while holding back 👆

Anyhow you contradict yourself. You think Dooku vs Kenobi would be close yet you put Dooku on tier 9, which would mean he could stomp/handily beat two tier 8s...