@Nova I started to write up a response, but **** it. If 1 tier according to Gillard is from TPM Kenobi to RotS Kenobi, then he clearly talking about overall combative effectiveness with the saber, not just skill.
Mace's skill is definitely not that far beyond Kenobi's, and by approximation neither is Anakin's, Yoda's, or Sidious'.
On the other hand, Invisible Hand / Knightfall Anakin, Vaapad'd Mace, Yoda and Sidious are way beyond RotS Kenobi as a fighter.
So no Dooku isn't tier 9, he's sitting at tier 8, just like Kenobi 👆
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
@Nova I started to write up a response, but **** it. If 1 tier according to Gillard is from TPM Kenobi to RotS Kenobi, then he clearly talking about overall combative effectiveness with the saber, not just skill.
He's talking about combative mentality and other things, not offensive Force powers.
Mace's skill is definitely not that far beyond Kenobi's, and by approximation neither is Anakin's, Yoda's, or Sidious'.
Just curious, but what are you basing this on (for Mace)?
On the other hand, Invisible Hand / Knightfall Anakin, Vaapad'd Mace, Yoda and Sidious are way beyond RotS Kenobi as a fighter.So no Dooku isn't tier 9, he's sitting at tier 8, just like Kenobi 👆
The Official Fact File #34 has Dooku and Yoda as almost equal, so no, he's not tier 8. Tier 9 is accurate, just as he's an equal for Mace (tier 9) and RotS Anakin (also tier 9).
Originally posted by SunRazer
He's talking about combative mentality and other things, not offensive Force powers.
I'm not talking about offensive Force Powers either, just skill + speed + strength.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Just curious, but what are you basing this on (for Mace)?
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?"
"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
No I'm not saying Kenobi >= Mace, so don't even start, but do you think Mace would be contemplating on who is the better swordmaster TPM or RotS Kenobi?
Originally posted by SunRazer
The Official Fact File #34 has Dooku and Yoda as almost equal, so no, he's not tier 8. Tier 9 is accurate, just as he's an equal for Mace (tier 9) and RotS Anakin (also tier 9).
Lmao. Dooku got his shit stomped in by a tier 9 Anakin, and was beaten by an other tier 9 Yoda on a DS Nexus. And another tier 9 stompped Maul & Savage at once, something that is so far beyond Dooku it's almost laughable. Dooku's not tier 9 👆
^ To the argument above, Dooku's probably like a tier 8.5 or something. I doubt it's coincidence that Gillard never named Dooku's tier, because he's likely in between tiers.
Remember Gillard said there's a HUGE difference between a Tier 8 and 9. So there's loads of room to fit in between.
Originally posted by carthage
he was already Vader's equal with hardly any training due to his inherent potential.
He was Vader's equal in Legends. But then in Legends his training was said to be complete. Even then, some Legend sources have implied Vader still could have owned Luke with TK, so they were possibly only equal in Sabers.
In Canon however, Lucas and Filoni seem to think ROTJ Luke is only partly trained and no match for Vader. As for inherent potential, Luke's is not higher than Anakin's, and Vader > Anakin (in Canon), so that wouldn't be enough to make a part trained Luke his equal tbh.
I'm not talking about offensive Force Powers either, just skill + speed + strength.
Speed and strength isn't implied at all. He's talking about skill, it's just that skill refers to a lot of things - technical, mental etc. and he's talking about all of it.
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?""I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
No I'm not saying Kenobi >= Mace, so don't even start, but do you think Mace would be contemplating on who is the better swordmaster TPM or RotS Kenobi?
Thought it'd be this. Mace is talking about how good Obi-Wan would be against Grievous. He thinks nobody would be better-suited to defeating Grievous.
For the first part, fair enough, but we've already established that Dooku has better hype from characters. As for your last phrase, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Lmao. Dooku got his shit stomped in by a tier 9 Anakin, and was beaten by an other tier 9 Yoda on a DS Nexus. And another tier 9 stompped Maul & Savage at once, something that is so far beyond Dooku it's almost laughable. Dooku's not tier 9 thumb up
Dooku was getting curbed by Anakin due to power, not skill. He holds his own against Yoda as well, especially skill-wise, and Sidious curbs the others through physicals and Force power, not skill. Try to get some relevant examples.
Nah you're wrong. Gillard speaks of a swordmaster as a whole, not just skill:
As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various Star Wars swordsmen: "In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine [out of then]. On this film Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young the dark side is just too tempting."
You don't get more skilled when falling to the dark side, only more powerful 😬
Dooku is still not a 9.
Originally posted by Darth ThorI have Kenobi as Dooku's equal because of powerscaling, and nothing else. If that makes it any better.
Dooku beats Kenobi in a Sabers only fight. But if Kenobi's fighting at peak efficiency (like he did against Maul/Savage, ROTS Grievous and Anakin), then he will go down after a hard fight.
Emotionally ****ed up Anakin = Dooku, for me.
Obi-Wan = Emotionally ****ed up Anakin, as he didn't show his superiority in that particular fight, if there was one.
Yeah, Anakin is better in H2H (but comparable), yes, he would destroy him in the force, but, Obi-Wan was contending EVENLY the ENTIRE fight with Anakin.
And in case you were wondering, this is the point in which Obi-Wan almost kills Dooku: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWTe15I&t=1m30s
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nah you're wrong. Gillard speaks of a swordmaster as a whole, not just skill:As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various Star Wars swordsmen: "In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine [out of then]. On this film Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young the dark side is just too tempting."
You don't get more skilled when falling to the dark side, only more powerful 😬
Dooku is still not a 9.
It's not as if other aspects are also enhanced immediately just by converting to the dark side.
But it doesn't matter. Dooku's not an entire tier below Mace. And whilst there was a huge toll on his stamina, Dooku was still matching up to Anakin quite well. Dooku's a nine.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
And in case you were wondering, this is the point in which Obi-Wan almost kills Dooku: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWTe15I&t=1m30s
Really don't see Dooku in any danger there.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not as if other aspects are also enhanced immediately just by converting to the dark side.But it doesn't matter. Dooku's not an entire tier below Mace. And whilst there was a huge toll on his stamina, Dooku was still matching up to Anakin quite well. Dooku's a nine.
Lel. You are obviously can't stop gagging on dooku's dick so I'm done here.
Originally posted by MythLordBecause thats how his personality is, he's cocky. He was mocking Kenobi for the entire fight, despite being pushed back, and almost chopped in half.
LMFAO. Rapidly coming to his side, as he barely manages to block... yet he smiles right after blocking it.
He smiles when fighting ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan as well.
We also don't see his face RIGHT after he blocks it, we see a few seconds later.