Deadshot vs. Captain America

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
maybe i was asleep but Deadshot never ever shot at people's feet/legs....

Originally posted by FrothByte
At the start of the bell, DS needs to reach down and draw his gun before he is able to point it at Cap and shoot. By that time Cap would already have been moving. Or did you think that DS starts this match with gun already aimed?

Also the way how shields work in terms of line of sight and also bullet trajectory, Cap can easily cover himself to his knees given proper angle. You need to try it to understand it.

I don't need to prove that Cap can move his feet at 50mph because regular humans can move their feet far faster than that. Also, why do you have this fixation about 50mph?

I'm still waiting for you to show feats of DS shooting fast moving targets in their feet (or even just their legs)

The gun is already on his hand. He needs to just raise his hand and point.
Takes a fraction of a second to do. Cap can't cover himself to his knees because he didn't in the movies. When he was blocking bullets while on the move he ALWAYS had his waistline and complete legs exposed.

Caps entire legs and waist will be exposed. DS hits Cap within 2 seconds after the bell everytime.

Originally posted by Surtur
By this logic Batman is magic. Peak human means something different in fiction than it does in real life. People who are supposed to be insanely skilled but still human..do things that no amount of mere skill would allow.

Originally posted by h1a8
DS is not going to shoot at the shield on purpose. If Cap blocks the first shot then DS aims at his legs.

The gun is already on his hand. He needs to just raise his hand and point.
Takes a fraction of a second to do. Cap can't cover himself to his knees because he didn't in the movies. When he was blocking bullets while on the move he ALWAYS had his waistline and complete legs exposed.

Caps entire legs and waist will be exposed. DS hits Cap within 2 seconds after the bell everytime.

There were multiple times in the movies where Cap's legs were exposed but he never got shot in the legs. Why? Because guess what, it's not easy to shoot someone with a shield in the legs. Especially not if he'smoving.

But hey, if DS has a feat where he shoots people in the legs then let's have it and maybe then you'd have a point.

Originally posted by h1a8
DS is not going to shoot at the shield on purpose. If Cap blocks the first shot then DS aims at his legs.

you are one funny dude.. please tell us when and where exactly did Deadshot fire at the zombies feet???? oh and yes he will shoot at the shield on purpose because Cap will have the shield up and ready to go

Originally posted by h1a8
when he was shooting zombies. He shot right and left (alternating, turning his torso) with 0.3 seconds or less in between. No, I can post plenty of scenes where cap is behind the shield and can't see shit. He's blocking bullets while moving forward. He won't pack himself in such a way where his waistline on down is not covered while moving forward because he never did it in the movies (assuming it is physically possible). His shield always covered his head, chest, and part of his belly, not his waistline or legs when he was on the move.

I just watched the scene you are referring to. They were up close (3ft apart). Each shot was like a punch attack. It takes deliberate and significant movement of the hands to aim for the legs from that close. From 50m away an inch difference in aim is the difference between a head shot and a leg shot. If DS can move a gun left to right (about 3ft) in less than 0.3 sec then he move it an inch even quicker.

Him being unable to see -sometimes- is irrelevant to the debate (it is purely speculatory that he can't see in this fight, and frankly a bit absurd). That is because we have primary evidence of him aim blocking his opponent as well as primary evidence of him being able to quickly adjust shield positiioning to block secondary areas as each of those targetting adjustments that Cap defended against were a split second in between (as well as being hidden as WS spun his body to prevent Cap from seeing where the next shot is coming from til the last split second). Your only argument is that he won't be able to see and I find that silly as we've seen him block shots behind his shield thus evidence by "feats" seems to disagree with you.

You have presented no evidence of DS shooting against someone who can defend against bullets and gunfire (oh wait, we do when he fought Batman and hit his armor, how did that go again?). As well as no evidence of fast-shot precision targetting of small very fast moving objects that are going to move in and out of his view randomly behind a defensive shield/position (if you've ever held a gun, you'd know the level of difficult difference involved here) or even something that would point to that being highly probable. If you do, pls post the clip.

As far as evidence goes, my evidence > yours.

Originally posted by Robtard
PIS off: Cap blocks the first, maybe second salvo, then DS corrects and shoots him in the groin or legs.

Even if Cap turtles himself behind the shield, he's protected but immoble.

Cap's best bet is to toss the shield and hope he gets hit somewhere non lethal to him, as a single well placed hit from the shield will either KO or kill DS.

PIS on: Cap charges blocking his face/upperbody and DS just keeps shooting the shield and Cap then bonks him when he gets in range.

Sounds good

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Him being unable to see -sometimes- is irrelevant to the debate (it is purely speculatory that he can't see in this fight, and frankly a bit absurd). That is because we have primary evidence of him aim blocking his opponent as well as primary evidence of him being able to quickly adjust shield positiioning to block secondary areas as each of those targetting adjustments that Cap defended against were a split second in between (as well as being hidden as WS spun his body to prevent Cap from seeing where the next shot is coming from til the last split second). Your only argument is that he won't be able to see and I find that silly as we've seen him block shots behind his shield thus evidence by "feats" seems to disagree with you.

You have presented no evidence of DS shooting against someone who can defend against bullets and gunfire (oh wait, we do when he fought Batman and hit his armor, how did that go again?). As well as no evidence of fast-shot precision targetting of small very fast moving objects that are going to move in and out of his view randomly behind a defensive shield/position (if you've ever held a gun, you'd know the level of difficult difference involved here) or even something that would point to that being highly probable. If you do, pls post the clip.

As far as evidence goes, my evidence > yours.

The time he saw behind the shield is when he Had to. WS was 3 ft away. They were hth distance apart. Cap can only afford to take his eyes off his opponent for a split second. This is because WS will not miss from that close. From a distance Cap was shown many times to hide behind the shield and NOT LOOK at the person shooting. In some cases Cap would simply put his head down and move forward, trusting that they don't shoot him in the dicke.

Anyway, I'll focus on the stronger argument. Cap was able to to adjust the block because WS was 3ft away and had to move his arm a significant distance to aim at the legs (telegraphing). This was like throwing a punch at the legs, Cap is able to block it. Now DS would be 50m away. Cap will not know what he's aiming at. A simple movement of the nozzle less than 0.2 of an inch will result in the difference in a head shot vs. a dicke shot.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
you are one funny dude.. please tell us when and where exactly did Deadshot fire at the zombies feet???? oh and yes he will shoot at the shield on purpose because Cap will have the shield up and ready to go

Originally posted by FrothByte
There were multiple times in the movies where Cap's legs were exposed but he never got shot in the legs. Why? Because guess what, it's not easy to shoot someone with a shield in the legs. Especially not if he'smoving.

But hey, if DS has a feat where he shoots people in the legs then let's have it and maybe then you'd have a point.

Originally posted by h1a8
1) The time he saw behind the shield is when he Had to. WS was 3 ft away. They were hth distance apart. Cap can only afford to take his eyes off his opponent for a split second. This is because WS will not miss from that close. From a distance Cap was shown many times to hide behind the shield and NOT LOOK at the person shooting. In some cases Cap would simply put his head down and move forward, trusting that they don't shoot him in the dicke.

2) Anyway, I'll focus on the stronger argument. Cap was able to to adjust the block because WS was 3ft away and had to move his arm a significant distance to aim at the legs (telegraphing). This was like throwing a punch at the legs, Cap is able to block it. Now DS would be 50m away. Cap will not know what he's aiming at. A simple movement of the nozzle less than 0.2 of an inch will result in the difference in a head shot vs. a dicke shot

1) Speculatory. Him being behind his shield and "not seeing" the shooter sometimes has not taken away from his ability to block their shots almost every time. What we DO know is that, relevant to the debate at hand is that we KNOW he can aim block.

2) Watch the clip again, WS snuck in a shot after a spin w/c made it pretty hidden and within a split second (0:36) . Still blocked.

https://youtu.be/IuvDKS7-MTk

You are making an argument without even providing us with any proof. The last time DS fought someone who could defend against gunfire, he shot center mass and hit armor (even tho the face was pretty damned exposed) and couldn't draw and acquire his target within a split second to shoot at weak spots. Heck, his "quick draw" was slow enough for Batman to easily block and his one chance to bypass the armor by shooting at the mouth/eyes was slow enough for his daughter to move in the way.

Here is the clip:

https://youtu.be/Y2yYSbMbnJA

He has 2 seconds before Cap is on him. And from showings, looks like his first shots are gonna hit shield.

Not looking to good for ol' Slowshot.

Also, here s the zombie shooting scene with DS armed with a rifle.

https://youtu.be/gwhu1tn4JaQ

Look at his body movements as he acquires and shoots targets at short range (0:08 onwards). Looks pretty telegraph-y to me. He moved nearly his entire body everytime he fired. Looks to me Cap will easily figure out where he is aiming.

And is it just me or did he miss 2 shots (0:23 and 0:24)? Hitting car instead of zombie at nearly point blank range?

And what about his shooting here looks faster than any other guy Cap has succesfully aim blocked before?

Originally posted by h1a8

Cap's waistline on down will be exposed. Part of his belly, his waistline, his thighs, his knees and his feet. DS can simply aim at the waist, thighs, or knees. Shooting at the feet isn't necessary.

Okay funny dude,,,,, hahahahahahahahhaha

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This theory that somehow Cap can just block these shots while running forward and take no direct serious hits is a bit off for me. It would be tough to run and not get hit with a few shots. His shield can only block so much. Nor would he even want to peak his head around the shield. For all I know, in that situation, deadshot would simply spray in a coordinated way over and over. Cap wouldn't be able to block them all.

That said, I can also see how Cap, especially with CIS on would simply be aided by DS shotting mindlessly at his shield for no apparent reason. Even without, I could see a situation where Cap would get somewhat lucky but mostly skilled and block all fire and close the distance.

However, to think Cap can just do this and not take shots is kind of silly. He's going to get hit, and likely a few times. Can he tank through that to beat that ass... Not sure

Its mindboggling how people keep trying to argue ways for nonbullet timers to win a fight against DS. If any part of Cap is exposed, he takes a bullet. He's stuck being an immobile turtle completely behind his shield, and even that might not block all the bullets. There is no way for him to close the gap.

The OP also stipulated that they have no idea who the other is and the DS thinks Cap is there to kill his daughter. Not only is he bloodlusted, but Cap will probably treat him like he does every other armed assailant and either:

1. Put up his shield and sprint at him leaving his entire lower body open for the many shots DS will place there

2. He'll throw his shield at DS which DS will just shoot out of the sky or take the instakill shot against a completely open Cap

There is no scenario here where Cap comes out on top with CIS off.

What makes you think DS could shot the shield out of the sky?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Speculatory. Him being behind his shield and "not seeing" the shooter sometimes has not taken away from his ability to block their shots almost every time. What we DO know is that, relevant to the debate at hand is that we KNOW he can aim block.

2) Watch the clip again, WS snuck in a shot after a spin w/c made it pretty hidden and within a split second (0:36) . Still blocked.

https://youtu.be/IuvDKS7-MTk

You are making an argument without even providing us with any proof. The last time DS fought someone who could defend against gunfire, he shot center mass and hit armor (even tho the face was pretty damned exposed) and couldn't draw and acquire his target within a split second to shoot at weak spots. Heck, his "quick draw" was slow enough for Batman to easily block and his one chance to bypass the armor by shooting at the mouth/eyes was slow enough for his daughter to move in the way.

Here is the clip:

https://youtu.be/Y2yYSbMbnJA

He has 2 seconds before Cap is on him. And from showings, looks like his first shots are gonna hit shield.

Not looking to good for ol' Slowshot.

My argument is simple. No need for long posts. Basic logic is my proof. WS was telegraphing and moving his arm a whole foot or more. It's not the same as being 50m away and adjusting the aim by millimeters. There is no evidence to support that Cap can discern the aim of a head shot vs. a groin shot (since it's a different of a few millimeters). No is there any evidence to support he can move his shield a whole foot or more in reaction to DS moving his gun a few millimeters.

That DS wasn't geared up in the scene you posted, he was in normal clothes. His gun was concealed. DS in this fight will have his gun already out in his hand and on his arm. He just lifts it and aims. DS can get a first shot off in less than a second. He can get a second shot off in less than 0.3 seconds.

It would take Cap more than 5 seconds to cover that distance from rest. It takes a few seconds for Cap to reach top speed. He will be Accelerating from 0mph.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Also, here s the zombie shooting scene with DS armed with a rifle.

https://youtu.be/gwhu1tn4JaQ

Look at his body movements as he acquires and shoots targets at short range (0:08 onwards). Looks pretty telegraph-y to me. He moved nearly his entire body everytime he fired. Looks to me Cap will easily figure out where he is aiming.

And is it just me or did he miss 2 shots (0:23 and 0:24)? Hitting car instead of zombie at nearly point blank range?

And what about his shooting here looks faster than any other guy Cap has succesfully aim blocked before?

Originally posted by Silent Master
What makes you think DS could shot the shield out of the sky?

Originally posted by h1a8
My argument is simple. No need for long posts. Basic logic is my proof. WS was telegraphing and moving his arm a whole foot or more. It's not the same as being 50m away and adjusting the aim by millimeters. There is no evidence to support that Cap can discern the aim of a head shot vs. a groin shot (since it's a different of a few millimeters). No is there any evidence to support he can move his shield a whole foot or more in reaction to DS moving his gun a few millimeters.

That DS wasn't geared up in the scene you posted, he was in normal clothes. His gun was concealed. DS in this fight will have his gun already out in his hand and on his arm. He just lifts it and aims. DS can get a first shot off in less than a second. He can get a second shot off in less than 0.3 seconds.

It would take Cap more than 5 seconds to cover that distance from rest. It takes a few seconds for Cap to reach top speed. He will be Accelerating from 0mph.

Except he wasn't (concealing a shot/movement until the last split-second of execution is the opposite of "telegraphing" in case you didn't know) and DS does (as indicated by his showings). Evidence > unsupported logic.

He had his gun in hand when he allowed his daughter to get between him and Batman. Him having his gun on-hand would still require him to raise said gun, aim it and fire (as characters don't start aiming weapons at each other). And based on on-screen showings, he isn't exactly faster than any other random shmoe with a gun Cap has blocked or dodged in the past. More accurate? Yes. Faster? No.

Cap will block his initial salvo, on screen evidence supports my argument, not yours.

And I call BS with the whole 5 second claim. Classic you to make a claim, not back it with evidence or logic and then place the burden of proof on the other side. That is a classic tactic of a bad debater, you know?

Unfortunately for you, however, I can back my shit up with actual logic and evidence.

Highway chase scene:

https://youtu.be/2Wn23N77hF0

(0:48) WS jumps down and lands at 0mph. What do you notice?

Cars are swerving away from him, as bodies (cars) in motion would need to avoid a body (WS) NOT in motion that is directly in their path to avoid hitting it. Especially at the speeds they move in freeways.

The second he starts running at (0:49), cars are no longer seen gaining ground on him and are no longer avoiding him nor does anything indicate that they slowed down in any way as all of them are shown to still be in their regular rate of motion as soon as we see Cap and BP jump down.

So you're a "physics buff". When objects in motion no longer appear to gain ground from someone's frame of reference, what does that mean?

Yep. Means that he was able to accelerate to said object's speed within said time frame. Which all happened as soon as he started running.

I'll not explain further as, if you have basic understanding of either physics and logic, you'd know that Cap did the same thing based on the evidence provided. I'll let you figure it out and not spoonfeed you the rest.

Bear in mind that if I hear the whole "feats aren't interchangeable" argument, then I will assume that you either have a poor understanding of physics or did not review the evidence provided. Because if you look closely at the evidence, it does prove that Cap accelarated to WS's speed almost instantly.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's because they were all over the place. The sheer distance between targets was significantly greater than the distance from Cap's head to his groin. Plus they were a lot closer than 50m away (some were just a few meters away). Trust me, I did the math already. It only takes a few millimeters of change in aim to go from the head to the ground from 50m away.

He still telegraphs his movement when he acquires new targets. Evidence points to this. Heck, he had a ton of wasted movment everytime he fired his weapons in the clip I posted. Yet you are arguing that he would have precise and total economy of movement in shooting at Cap within the first 2 seconds.

Evidence > assumption.

Sorry sport, not gonna fly.

Originally posted by Silent Master
What makes you think DS could shot the shield out of the sky?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Except he wasn't (concealing a shot/movement until the last split-second of execution is the opposite of "telegraphing" in case you didn't know) and DS does (as indicated by his showings). Evidence > unsupported logic.

He had his gun in hand when he allowed his daughter to get between him and Batman. Him having his gun on-hand would still require him to raise said gun, aim it and fire (as characters don't start aiming weapons at each other). And based on on-screen showings, he isn't exactly faster than any other random shmoe with a gun Cap has blocked or dodged in the past. More accurate? Yes. Faster? No.

Cap will block his initial salvo, on screen evidence supports my argument, not yours.

And I call BS with the whole 5 second claim. Classic you to make a claim, not back it with evidence or logic and then place the burden of proof on the other side. That is a classic tactic of a bad debater, you know?

Unfortunately for you, however, I can back my shit up with actual logic and evidence.

Highway chase scene:

https://youtu.be/2Wn23N77hF0

(0:48) WS jumps down and lands at 0mph. What do you notice?

Cars are swerving away from him, as bodies (cars) in motion would need to avoid a body (WS) NOT in motion that is directly in their path to avoid hitting it. Especially at the speeds they move in freeways.

The second he starts running at (0:49), cars are no longer seen gaining ground on him and are no longer avoiding him nor does anything indicate that they slowed down in any way as all of them are shown to still be in their regular rate of motion as soon as we see Cap and BP jump down.

So you're a "physics buff". When objects in motion no longer appear to gain ground from someone's frame of reference, what does that mean?

Yep. Means that he was able to accelerate to said object's speed within said time frame. Which all happened as soon as he started running.

I'll not explain further as, if you have basic understanding of either physics and logic, you'd know that Cap did the same thing based on the evidence provided. I'll let you figure it out and not spoonfeed you the rest.

Bear in mind that if I hear the whole "feats aren't interchangeable" argument, then I will assume that you either have a poor understanding of physics or did not review the evidence provided. Because if you look closely at the evidence, it does prove that Cap accelarated to WS's speed almost instantly.

You can try to derail the points, it won't work. Again DS can get a shot off in less than a second. And a second shot off in less than 0.3 seconds. That's all that matters.

Yes DS Telegraphed. I'm saying when he is fighting Cap a simple change by a few millimeters will be the difference between a head shot and a groin shot. Not only isn't there any evidence to support that Cap can detect a few millimeter difference in aim from 50m away but he there is no evidence to support he can move his shield fast enough and certainly no evidence to support that he can even trace an aim from that far (since a few millimeters difference equals the difference of several feet.

You are using stuff that don't rebut my argument. What evidence supports that Cap can
1. Trace an aim that precise from that distance
2. Move his shield fast enough in response to DS moving his gun a few millimeters.

Nothing you shown supports Cap being able to do that.

If you don't believe that a few millimeters difference in aim equals a few feet in the shot then I'll prove it to you.

What are you talking about? We don't see Cap instantly doing anything. We see him jump down a fraction of a second after BP. The scene is then cut. WS is running with human speed (by the look of his leg speed, stride length, and the slow movement of the cars). This is actually a low showing for Cap.

Originally posted by h1a8
another long post. Geez.

You can try to derail the points, it won't work. Again DS can get a shot off in less than a second. And a second shot off in less than 0.3 seconds. That's all that matters.

Yes DS Telegraphed. I'm saying when he is fighting Cap a simple change by a few millimeters will be the difference between a head shot and a groin shot. Not only isn't there any evidence to support that Cap can detect a few millimeter difference in aim from 50m away but he there is no evidence to support he can move his shield fast enough and certainly no evidence to support that he can even trace an aim from that far (since a few millimeters difference equals the difference of several feet.

You are using stuff that don't rebut my argument. How could
1. Trace an aim that precise from that distance
2. Move his shield fast enough in response to DS moving his gun a few millimeters.

Nothing you shown supports Cap being able to do that.

If you don't believe that a few millimeters difference in aim equals a few feet in the shot then I'll prove it to you.

What are you talking about? We don't see Cap instantly doing anything. We see him jump down a fraction of a second after BP. The scene is then cut. WS is running with human speed (by the look of his leg speed, stride length, and the slow movement of the cars). This is actually a low showing for Cap.

I disagree. Based on evidence, DS will pretty much telegraph his aim. First salvo will be center mass and get blocked. The next salvo will mean that Cap would be close enough to easily aim block his shots. You claim that he would immediately realize to shoot at the legs within a split second and yet have provided nothing to support this. Heck, we even see him get flustered when Batman caught him by surprise.

I have provided evidence of Cap aim blocking and blocking shots that would have been direct hits, yet you chose to disregard evidence while providing none of your own.

Now cars in a freeway are moving at human speed now? SMH. Average speeds in busy freeways are around 30-45 mph at least unless there is heavy traffic w/c I don't see here. You need to prove the things you say before you post it.

And I gave you a chance to prove your math skillz. Sadly, you didn't take the opportunity.

At (0:53) we see WS reach top speed (easily zipping past cars) BP couldn't have started running until (0:52) and Cap at around a split second into (0:53) as we see his feet touching the ground around this time.

Top speeds appear identical or close enough for one not to gain ground on the other. The distances between Cap, BP and WS looks about (6 car lengths to me from 0:56-0:57 between BP and WS and much closer between BP and Cap) 80 feet to me between WS and BP are consistent with one getting a second head start at around 55 mph. Go ahead, do the math.

Cap covers the distance in 2 seconds and bonks DS in the face.