Deadshot vs. Captain America

Started by h1a837 pages

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Actually, that's been the argument from the very start. It is not "moving the goalposts" when you're just repeating the same argument you've been presenting from the very beginning. The argument has always been "feats" (Cap) vs no "feats" (DS).

You are the one implying that DS will immediately bypass Cap's defenses the second he realizes the shield blocks bullets. Of which he has no "feats" proving this.

You got it backwards, you are attempting to distract from your lack of evidence by focusing on a purely conjectural argument. Should I repost my first and second post to prove this?

Facts:
DS telegraphs his shots.
DS has poor economy of movement in several of his showings.
The one time DS faced an opponent who can defend against bullets, he got flustered and hit armor.

Cap has aim blocked opponents
Cap has blocked bullets from a variety of range.
Cap is a master of trajectory.

You claim that it takes a minute change in angle to hit Cap and that DS can change his tactics on the fly within seconds, and that at this distance, Cap would not be able to see where he is aiming.

But Cap has blocked shots from that distance before, are you saying that it was luck or that his opponents were magically drawn to his shield? He knew where the bullets would land and defended against them.

And DS telegraphis his shots, his body moves at an almost exaggerated way when he makes even minute adjustments to aim (see zombir fight). Even at 50m, Cap will notice that DS is adjusting his aim.

DS has one showing where he fought someone capable of defending against gunfire. He failed. Why are you so confident that he would be able to bypass the defenses of an opponent with a far richer history of defending against gunfire?

No one is denying his great aim. But why can't his shots be dodged? Why can't they be blocked?

Wait. What part of your last post to me did you indicate that you agreed to DS shooting head first and hitting the shield? Because I just went thru your old posts and I couldn't find it. Pls quote it because your last post insists that he will shoot at the legs and groin and made no mention of the head/center mass shot.

You're not getting it.....

Firstly, this debate isn't about WS. It is about Cap. And WS was already at full speed before Cap even got started running.

Do the math.

Initial starting point = where Bucky is 40 feet (as you claimed) ahead.
Bucky's velocity = top speed of 55mph at least
Ending distance = 100 feet (as he was slightly behind BP) apart.
Cap's initial speed. = 0 mph
Cap's constant acceleration = X

Solve for X.

And come back here and let me know the results. I promise that it will be very enlightening and will in no way "kill my own argument".

Now you are bordering trolling.
I already proved that Bucky traveled 40ft in the first 4 seconds. This means it would take Cap more than 4 seconds to reach DS. It takes time to reach full speed. Top speed is irrelevant. I just proved that Cap won't cross 50m in less than 4 seconds.

DS can raise his gun and fire in about a second. That being poor performance is irrelevant and red herring. DS can get another shot off in less than a second (as shown).

Answer these questions.

1. Are you saying that Cap gets to him in less than 3 seconds when it was shown him to take longer to reach a smaller distance?
2. Are you saying it would take longer than a second to get the first shot off?
3. Are you saying that DS wouldn't go for an exposed area when he sees Cap's head and chest is covered by a shield?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Real world physics hardly apply to a fictional super-metal that can absorb energy.
There was a scene where Cap got knocked through a building when he blocked an rpg with his shield. Fiction support both cases.

Tbh Cap's shield is one of the dumbest things in comics. I studied the properties of it in physics class a long time ago. I got contradictions everywhere. It bounces off walls and people with almost no loss of momentum yet it absorbs impacts well. So I figure the shield is made of at least two separate parts. The edge has elastic properties and the center has absorbing properties. I know writers didn't create the shield that way but it is the only plausible thing I can think of.

Originally posted by FrothByte
This point is moot anyway. If DS takes the time to shoot the shield out of the air he'll get tackled by Cap. His best bet is to dodge the shield and keep shooting at Cap.
Maybe, but Cap has to cross half a football field before DS can get off a second shot since he'd be defenseless. That seems pretty unlikely too.

Then again, Cap is an enhanced guy, so maybe he could close the distance fast. The fastest real world time for a 50m dash is 5.56 seconds. Cap didn't seem like he was going all that fast when he was running with Falcon, but lets assume that was him being leisurely and say he can beat the fastest real world time and maybe even close the distance at 3-4 seconds. An m16 can fire 45–60 rounds/min semi-automatic, which is a round every 1-1.15 seconds. DS wouldn't miss, so he should be able to both shoot the shield out of the sky (or just dodge) and lethally shoot cap.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Or just go Cap has the magic power of blocking anything with his shield. After all, some guy keeps saying that DS has the magic power of never missing.

that'll work...

Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are bordering trolling.
I already proved that Bucky traveled 40ft in the first 4 seconds. This means it would take Cap more than 4 seconds to reach DS. It takes time to reach full speed. Top speed is irrelevant. I just proved that Cap won't cross 50m in less than 4 seconds.

DS can raise his gun and fire in about a second. That being poor performance is irrelevant and red herring. DS can get another shot off in less than a second (as shown).

Answer these questions.

1. Are you saying that Cap gets to him in less than 3 seconds when it was shown him to take longer to reach a smaller distance?
2. Are you saying it would take longer than a second to get the first shot off?
3. Are you saying that DS wouldn't go for an exposed area when he sees Cap's head and chest is covered by a shield?

That poor performance is his only showing. You can try and sweep it under the rug but you need to provide evidence that contradicts it. It proves 4 things:
-DS telegraphs his moves.
-DS is nothing special on the draw speed wise.
-DS can get flustered when facing something that can negate his firearms and might (like any normal person) take a second or two to re-adjust his tactics
-DS primary attack will be center mass/headshot. Which will get blocked.

And I asked you where it was that you "agreed with me" in your prior replies to me when you accused me of not reading your replies. By your silence, I guess you owe me an apology.

OMG, you're still not getting it.....

Why are you using Bucky's performance to guage Cap's performance? This isn't about Bucky. It is about Cap.

Here are some facts.
-at (0:53) Cap lands some feet away from BP. The distance, from your own words, is around 40 feet behind.
-at (0:53) Bucky is shown to already be running at top speed, outracing cars in the freeway (setting it at around at least 55 mph top speed at this point, tho it should be quite a bit faster than that IMO.).
-at (0:56-0:59) we can see WS ahead of BP by close to around 6 car lengths (or around 80 feet. Freeze the frames around this point a few times and measure) with Cap close behind (20 feet more or less).

Which of the above facts are wrong?

Thus:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Initial starting point = where Bucky is 40 feet (as you claimed) ahead.
Bucky's velocity = top speed of 55mph at least
Ending distance = 100 feet (as he was slightly behind BP) apart.
Cap's initial speed. = 0 mph
Cap's constant acceleration = X

Solve for X..

I am being serious when I say I have work to do and I really shouldn't be wasting time here posting. Pls show your fellow debater some courtesy and do your due diligence before replying

Edit. Forgot to include that Cap's top speed also caps at 55 mph (or caps at whatever Bucky's top speed is as none of the characters sermed to be able to gain ground on the other).

Too bad the OP didnt make this into a poll topic...

It would have been interesting to see what the results would have been...

I havent counted, but (with just glancing over some of the replies) it seems the voting would be close at this point...

Anyway, carry on; this is entertaining...

🙂

👆

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That poor performance is his only showing. You can try and sweep it under the rug but you need to provide evidence that contradicts it. It proves 4 things:
-DS telegraphs his moves.
-DS is nothing special on the draw speed wise.
-DS can get flustered when facing something that can negate his firearms and might (like any normal person) take a second or two to re-adjust his tactics
-DS primary attack will be center mass/headshot. Which will get blocked.

And I asked you where it was that you "agreed with me" in your prior replies to me when you accused me of not reading your replies. By your silence, I guess you owe me an apology.

OMG, you're still not getting it.....

Why are you using Bucky's performance to guage Cap's performance? This isn't about Bucky. It is about Cap.

Here are some facts.
-at (0:53) Cap lands some feet away from BP. The distance, from your own words, is around 40 feet behind.
-at (0:53) Bucky is shown to already be running at top speed, outracing cars in the freeway (setting it at around at least 55 mph top speed at this point, tho it should be quite a bit faster than that IMO.).
-at (0:56-0:59) we can see WS ahead of BP by close to around 6 car lengths (or around 80 feet. Freeze the frames around this point a few times and measure) with Cap close behind (20 feet more or less).

Which of the above facts are wrong?

Thus:

I am being serious when I say I have work to do and I really shouldn't be wasting time here posting. Pls show your fellow debater some courtesy and do your due diligence before replying

Now actually try ADDRESSING my argument without utterly ignoring it and posting things that has nothing to do with what I said.

I'll repeat

You claimed that Cap runs at a similar speed as Bucky. These are your own words, now eat them. After all, he couldn't catch up to Bucky and BP after many seconds of running. He gained no ground on Bucky or BP (lost ground actually). Bucky is either faster or equal to Cap in running speed.

I already proved that Bucky traveled the first 40ft in the first 4 seconds. This means it would take Cap more than 4 seconds to reach DS. But I'll satisfy your question at the end.

Another point you didn't address.
DS can raise his gun and fire in about a second. 1 second being "poor performance" is irrelevant and red herring since 1 second is enough. DS can get another shot off in less than a second (as shown). This is enough time. 2 seconds being "poor performance" is red herring since that's enough time to get the job done.

You also didn't respond to this question.

Are you saying that DS wouldn't go for an exposed area when he sees Cap's head and chest is covered by a shield?

Calculating the value to your question is irrelevant if we know that Cap covered the first 40ft distance in about 4 seconds, but I'll do it anyway. It's about distance and time. Thus the speculation (not fact) that the cars were moving 55mph is false. How can one accelerate uniformly to 55mph or more in 4 seconds when they only traveled 40ft in 4 seconds? This is a contradiction. But WE SEE HIM travel 40 feet in 4 seconds. We actually don't know how fast the cars were going. So what we see is stronger than what we speculate. In some scenes the cars appear to be moving at 15mph due to rush hour traffic. Some cars were in front of others by a few feet (almost like traffic jam).

Before we satisfy your question. Let's assume Cap can travel 55mph instantly (infinite acceleration) instead of 4 seconds, but he tops out at 55mph. Then it would take him 2 seconds to get to DS. But since we know it takes him 4 seconds to reach 55mph then he gets to DS in more than 2 seconds.

Now to satisfy your question. I can calculate the exact time it would take Cap to reach DS assuming he can reach 55mph in 4 seconds.

a = v/t = 55mph/4 seconds = 6.1468m/s^2

The distance covered in the first 4 seconds is
d = 1/2at^2 = 1/2(6.1468)(4)^2 = 49.1744m. Although thus contradicts what was shown, it still shows more than 4 seconds to reach DS.

So Cap gets to DS in a little over 4 seconds assuming he can reach top speed in 4 seconds and top out at 55mph.

This is getting out of hand. DS has no feats shooting at moving legs and feat. Cap has plenty feats blocking all incoming gunfire.

Yes, Cap has never gone up against a marksman like DS but DS also has never gone up against an opponent like Steve.

So you can argue physics and math all you want, at the end of the day DS has no feats to support what you're claiming.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now actually try ADDRESSING my argument without utterly ignoring it and posting things that has nothing to do with what I said.

I'll repeat

You claimed that Cap runs at a similar speed as Bucky. These are your own words, now eat them. After all, he couldn't catch up to Bucky and BP after many seconds of running. He gained no ground on Bucky or BP (lost ground actually). Bucky is either faster or equal to Cap in running speed.

I already proved that Bucky traveled the first 40ft in the first 4 seconds. This means it would take Cap more than 4 seconds to reach DS. But I'll satisfy your question at the end.

Another point you didn't address.
DS can raise his gun and fire in about a second. 1 second being "poor performance" is irrelevant and red herring since 1 second is enough. DS can get another shot off in less than a second (as shown). This is enough time. 2 seconds being "poor performance" is red herring since that's enough time to get the job done.

You also didn't respond to this question.

Are you saying that DS wouldn't go for an exposed area when he sees Cap's head and chest is covered by a shield?

Calculating the value to your question is irrelevant if we know that Cap covered the first 40ft distance in about 4 seconds, but I'll do it anyway. It's about distance and time. Thus the speculation (not fact) that the cars were moving 55mph is false. How can one accelerate uniformly to 55mph or more in 4 seconds when they only traveled 40ft in 4 seconds? This is a contradiction. But WE SEE HIM travel 40 feet in 4 seconds. We actually don't know how fast the cars were going. So what we see is stronger than what we speculate. In some scenes the cars appear to be moving at 15mph due to rush hour traffic. Some cars were in front of others by a few feet (almost like traffic jam).

Before we satisfy your question. Let's assume Cap can travel 55mph instantly (infinite acceleration) instead of 4 seconds, but he tops out at 55mph. Then it would take him 2 seconds to get to DS. But since we know it takes him 4 seconds to reach 55mph then he gets to DS in more than 2 seconds.

Now to satisfy your question. I can calculate the exact time it would take Cap to reach DS assuming he can reach 55mph in 4 seconds.

a = v/t = 55mph/4 seconds = 6.1468m/s^2

The distance covered in the first 4 seconds is
d = 1/2at^2 = 1/2(6.1468)(4)^2 = 49.1744m. Although thus contradicts what was shown, it still shows more than 4 seconds to reach DS.

So Cap gets to DS in a little over 4 seconds assuming he can reach top speed in 4 seconds and top out at 55mph.

Lol. Utter garbage. It's funny how you try to ignoring your points when that is the exact same thing you are doing. Hypocrite much?

My argument has always been: "Feats support Cap being capable of defending against gunfire while DS has no showings of bypassing an opponent's defenses when they are actively trying to defend from being shot and actually has a bad showing when it comes to this." You're the one trying to distract from that.

But feel free to toss accusations anytime. I'm sure ppl believe you. 😂

Yes, I said they run at similar top speeds. But we are talking acceleration here (since you brought it up). You DO understand the difference, right Mr "Physics-guy"?

And no, Bucky taking 4 seconds to cross 40 feet hass no bearing on Cap's capabilities as Cap has his own showings.

Here you are trying to downplay Cap's acceleration by using Bucky's showings while trying to distract from the fact that Cap has a pefectly quantifiable showing available within the same scene.

Writer's intent trumps your unsupported ramblings any day. They even used clever cameraplay to conceal/exaggerate their run speeds, which unquestionably. proves the writer's intent.

He was portrayed outpacing cars in a freeway. Cars don't go 10-15 mph in a freeway. Unless you can provide proof that this was not a regular freeway, then cars move at their average speed here by default (45 mph on average). Cry all you want, but that's how it is.

You have a poor understanding of physics and reality in general if you didn't know that acceleration need not be constant. How did it happen to Bucky, you say? Can't say for sure, but if I was to speculate, then it maybe it was because Bucky didn't push himself to top speed right away until he saw them landing as he still kinda had to look to his back at times to see where they are. Ppl can run at different speeds depending on the situation and how hard they push themselves, or didn't you know that? You try running while constantly checking your back and see how easily you are able to attain your top speed.

Chances are, however, that it was most likely done for cinematography reasons, that it is most likely that they couldn't have him be too far ahead so they can show Cap and BP landing behind him from that angle and still have them be clear to the audience. They likely had to slow the cars, as well, for safety reasons.

You didn't answer anything. You came up with your own numbers by ignoring facts. You were unable to discredit ANY of the facts I brought forward and are now REFUSING to do the math (or did you and just refused to show it knowing that it destroys your entire argument?

Now, I'm not a physics major. I'm just a regular joe that loves to argue but using a basic diagram, I was able to come up with 33.333 feet/s2. That means he reaches DS in 2.75 seconds.

Here are the facts:

WS attained top speed at 0:53 (zipping past cars likely going at around 45mph)
Cap was at 0mph at 0:53
Cap and Bucky attained top equal speeds (of 55mph or 80 feet/s).
Bucky had a 40 foot head start (or so you say, but I'll take your word for it)
Cap trailed by a 100 feet by the time he attained top speed of 55mph or 80 ft/s (w/c equaled WS)
Assuming constant acceleration since we have no choice but to assume this as we have no reason to believe his acceleration fluctuated.

And it is not a question of time here, it is a question of the acceleration needed to be able to reach equal top speeds from rest while only losing a set amount of distance.

Here it is in an easy to read diagram for all of us simple laymen:

Bucky @ 0 second (80 ft/s speed, no accel) = 40 feet head start
Bucky @ 1 second (80 ft/s speed, no accel) = 120 feet travelled
Bucky @ 2 seconds (80 ft/s speed, no accel) = 200 feet travelled
Bucky @ 3 seconds (80 ft/s speed, no accel) = 280 feet travelled

Cap @ 1 second (33.33 ft/s speed, 33.33 ft/s2 accel) = 33.33 feet travelled
Cap @ 2 seconds (66.66 ft speed, 33.33 ft/s2 accel) = 100 feet traveled
Cap @ 3 seconds (capped at 80 ft/s, no accel.). = 180 feet travelled

The above diagram is completely consistent with the scene in question as welll, showing that Cap reached top velocity (reaching WS top speed) within 3 seconds (as they were in full speed pursuit by 0:56).

Feel free to correct the above diagram as I am just a humble layman and have little physics expertise but I think we should call Astner as I don't really trust your physics "expertise" at this point with all the crap you just spouted and with your refusal to accept basic facts that you have been unable to refute so far.

PS. You accused me of not reading your post where you stated that you "agreed with me". Yet when called out to post a quote, you have til now failed to do so. You either owe me a quote or an apology.

Hell, here is Civil War Audi commercial:

https://youtu.be/mhYrHjbwfWE

At 0:56 you can see that the wife is maintaining the speed of 45 mph.

Is that scene canon to the movie? Likely no.

But I can use it as the real-world reference point to state that the average speeds for cars in the real world that drive in that area is 45mph.

On most highways, the slowest you're legally allowed to go is 45mph. Also, iirc they were in the fast lane while they were running, and people don't get in the fast lane unless they're really trying to haul ass.

And before someone says that this scene was in Germany and that German cars use kmh and not mph. Pls refer to 1:00 of the commercial and notice the american plates on the car. And the american family driving it. And american cars definitely use mph. You can bring and use a non-German registered car for up to 3 months in Germany (or was it 6? someone pls check on this).

Originally posted by Nibedicus
And before someone says that this scene was in Germany and that German cars use kmh and not mph. Pls refer to 1:00 of the commercial and notice the american plates on the car. And the american family driving it. And american cars definitely use mph. You can bring and use a non-German registered car for up to 3 months in Germany (or was it 6? someone pls check on this).

Doesn't really matter. Pretty sure freeway speeds in Germany would still be roughly equal to US speed limits if not faster, even if they were in kmh. (Or I might be wrong, never been to Germany).

Originally posted by FrothByte
This is getting out of hand. DS has no feats shooting at moving legs and feat. Cap has plenty feats blocking all incoming gunfire.

Yes, Cap has never gone up against a marksman like DS but DS also has never gone up against an opponent like Steve.

So you can argue physics and math all you want, at the end of the day DS has no feats to support what you're claiming.

His marksmen feats in the movie support perfect accuracy on his part. Trying to argue that he cant shoot legs because all he's ever done is shoot perfect headshots just doesn't make any sense. Neither does arguing that Cap can block someone like DS shots perfectly because he's done it against highly inferior shots. People on this forum have joked about the fact that no one ever shoots at Caps legs multiple times. PIS off, thats what would happen. Plus, he's shooting at Cap, not Quicksilver. There is no reason he cant shoot the guy in the leg.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
His marksmen feats in the movie support perfect accuracy on his part. Trying to argue that he cant shoot legs because all he's ever done is shoot perfect headshots just doesn't make any sense. Neither does arguing that Cap can block someone like DS shots perfectly because he's done it against highly inferior shots. People on this forum have joked about the fact that no one ever shoots at Caps legs multiple times. PIS off, thats what would happen. Plus, he's shooting at Cap, not Quicksilver. There is no reason he cant shoot the guy in the leg.

Perfect accuracy against targets that weren't actively trying to avoid getting hit.

See here's where you see the bias. DS has no feats of shooting fast moving objects that were trying to avoid getting shot yet you're willing to believe he can't miss fast moving objects. Cap has feats of blocking all bullets shot at him while he had his shield, yet you're willing to overlook that and say he'll get shot in the legs. See the bias?

Or maybe the fact that Cap has gone up against decent shots before whereas DS has never gone up against a decent fighter before and yet you think DS can easily shoot Cap whereas Cap can't block DS.

Come on, man. You think Cap can somehow advance while blocking his legs? Even his shins and feet? Unlike 99% of the people who shoot Cap, Deadshot won't be aiming for his big shiny shield.

Originally posted by KingD19
Come on, man. You think Cap can somehow advance while blocking his legs? Even his shins and feet? Unlike 99% of the people who shoot Cap, Deadshot won't be aiming for his big shiny shield.

It's not whether or not I think Cap can completely protect his legs, it's that I don't think DS has shown the skill necessary to make such a difficult shot.

I don't think people here understand how hard it is to shoot someone in the legs who's holding a shield.

First off at 50m Cap won't be a big target. His legs will be pretty small targets and they're moving and that's definitely not an easy shot.

But more importantly, the way shields work is that you don't need to actually cover your body part to protect it, you just need to cover line of sight to it, or in this case bullet trajectory.

If Cap puts his shield out in front of him and leans slightly forward, that already covers the bullet trajectory that DS would need to shoot his hips and groin. Might even be enough to block the trajectory to hit his knees. So for DS to hit his knees/thigh area, he would need to kneel down or lie down to get a clear shot.

Which means if DS wants to remain standing up, he'll be limited to just shooting below the knees or so. I can probably explain it better with a diagram but I'm too lazy for that.

Anyway, unless DS has a feat that shows he can easily shoot a fast moving foot or shin within 2-3 seconds before he gets punched in the face, I don't see why people are giving him no limits fallacy.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think people here understand how hard it is to shoot someone in the legs who's holding a shield.

First off at 50m Cap won't be a big target. His legs will be moving and that's definitely not an easy shot.

But more importantly, the way shields work is that you don't need to actually cover your body part to protect it, you just need to cover line of sight to it, or in this case bullet trajectory.

If Cap puts his shield out in front of him and leans slightly forward, that already covers the bullet trajectory that DS would need to shoot his hips and groin. Might even be enough to block the trajectory to hit his knees. So for DS to hit his knees/thigh area, he would need to kneel down or lie down to get a clear shot.

Which means if DS wants to remain standing up, he'll be limited to just shooting below the knees or so. I can probably explain it better with a diagram but I'm too lazy for that.

He doesn't need to be a big target. Deadshot is lethal at at least 4,000 meters. Also with standard gear he should get his targeting lens which should make the shot even easier. Also, by doing that Cap would have to expose a portion of his skull(from his eyes and up) so he could see, or he'd literally be running blind. And he'd have to bend over pretty far for it to cover his knees based on his size and the shield's size/diameter.

Even shooting him in the shins/feet, shouldn't be too hard. His legs can only move in one direction, no matter how fast he goes. Any side stepping will slow him down drastically and open up other areas to shoot.

And Floyd was confident enough to one-arm snipe Harley from easily beyond 50m, with a hand cannon revolver, at night. He just missed because they were friends.

When it comes to Deadshots accuracy, let me just say this:

Deadshot is the number marksman in the entire DC UNIVERSE...

Just let that sink in for a moment...

Out of all the characters there, all the superhumans, all the assassins; Deadshot is the better than all of them as pertains marksmanship...

As a result, I think this is one of those rare situations where "no limits fallacy" doesnt apply; atleast to targets within his 4000 meter kill range...

Thats over 2 miles of virtually flawless accuracy folks...