Originally posted by Arachnid1
His marksmen feats in the movie support perfect accuracy on his part. Trying to argue that he cant shoot legs because all he's ever done is shoot perfect headshots just doesn't make any sense. Neither does arguing that Cap can block someone like DS shots perfectly because he's done it against highly inferior shots. People on this forum have joked about the fact that no one ever shoots at Caps legs multiple times. PIS off, thats what would happen. Plus, he's shooting at Cap, not Quicksilver. There is no reason he cant shoot the guy in the leg.
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Originally posted by KingD19
He doesn't need to be a big target. Deadshot is lethal at at least 4,000 meters. Also with standard gear he should get his targeting lens which should make the shot even easier. Also, by doing that Cap would have to expose a portion of his skull(from his eyes and up) so he could see, or he'd literally be running blind. And he'd have to bend over pretty far for it to cover his knees based on his size and the shield's size/diameter.Even shooting him in the shins/feet, shouldn't be too hard. His legs can only move in one direction, no matter how fast he goes. Any side stepping will slow him down drastically and open up other areas to shoot.
And Floyd was confident enough to one-arm snipe Harley from easily beyond 50m, with a hand cannon revolver, at night. He just missed because they were friends.
Ah, lethal at 4000 meters. With what kind of gun. Sniper rifle? Did he get prep? What was the location? Was he shooting at someone who was walking out in the open?
Unless you can answer all that, then that factoid is moot in this fight. We are going by feats here and DS has ZERO feats to support that he can shoot a fast moving target that's trying to avoid him.
If you think I'm wrong, all you need to do is supply the feats.
Sure sounds like a lot of ppl posting here have never even held a gun.
Hitting stationary targets and hitting moving targets and hitting moving targets that are actively defending against you (ducking and finding cover) are different levels of difficulty. With exponentially higher levels of difficulty. And quickshooting a very fast moving target actively trying to defend against you that is bringing its own cover forcing you to target the smaller, even faster moving parts at 50 meters within 2 seconds? That is not easy at all. Even well trained marksmen will miss more often than not when trying to hit moving actively defending targets. Go ahead and ask one. The problem is, too many ppl here base their knowledge on what they see in movies where characters never seem to miss hitting moving targets. Heck many don't understand the basic concept of LOS.
Not to mention that those are all different skillsets. Hitting a stationary or slow moving target does not translate to hitting a fast moving target actively defending target.
And Cap has a freakin wealth of showings that point to him being able to dodge, block and defend against gunfire from multiple angles/shooters and from just about every range out there, from a variety of ranged weapons. He does this instinctively and with no difficulty on his part. And yet somehow, DS completely negates this without ever having to provide any "feat" that supports this.
Someone needs to show me the "feats" that DS have that support these assertions. Post it. Because the target range showing is just not enough for me.
Right now all I hear a whole lotta no-limits fallacies.
@Nib
Two questions for you:
1) Have you seen Suicide Squad yet?
2) Have you shot a gun?
I can answer yes to both of those questions (I own a 22 caliber rifle and a 38)...
If you saw the target practice scene, you know that Deadshots accuracy is off the charts good; no human on this Earth (in the real world or comicbook/movie world for that matter) can even remotely come close to what Deadshot displayed during that scene...
Yes they were stationary targets, but they were at various distances, and Deadshot shot multiple weapons (none of which were calibrated to him), and yet every single round hit every target in the exact same place perfectly (all absolutely perfect headshots right between the eyes and not a single round was off in the slightest)...
Over 100 rounds...
Thats crazy, insane, OMFG-did-you-see-that, good...
If you have done target practice, then you'd be able to appreciate and be in awe of what Deadshot did during that scene...
That was godlike (and in this case, that is NOT hyperbole)...
If you saw the movie (and the above described sequence) how on Earth can you conclude that Deadshot couldnt hit any exposed portion of Caps body at will is beyond me...
And btw Nib, Deadshot hit multiple moving targets, in rapid succession, with perfect headshots...
And he did it continuously...
This is absolutely superhuman...
Yes, you are seeing no limits arguments on the pro-Deadshot side, but seeing what Deadshot can do with a gun and knowing that "perfect aim" is essentially his superpower, I think the pro Deadshot arguments are valid...
Atleast to within his stated range of accuracy; 4000 meters...
Thats absolutely insane Nib...
Deadshot is the number 1 marksman in the entire DC Universe for a reason...
Just think about that when you try to argue what he cant do with a gun in his hands...
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@NibTwo questions for you:
1) Have you seen Suicide Squad yet?
2) Have you shot a gun?I can answer yes to both of those questions (I own a 22 caliber rifle and a 38)...
If you saw the target practice scene, you know that Deadshots accuracy is off the charts good; no human on this Earth (in the real world or comicbook/movie world for that matter) can even remotely come close to what Deadshot displayed during that scene...
Yes they were stationary targets, but they were at various distances, and Deadshot shot multiple weapons (none of which were calibrated to him), and yet every single round hit every target in the exact same place perfectly (all absolutely perfect headshots right between the eyes and not a single round was off in the slightest)...
Over 100 rounds...
Thats crazy, insane, OMFG-did-you-see-that, good...
If you have done target practice, then you'd be able to appreciate and be in awe of what Deadshot did during that scene...
That was godlike (and in this case, that is NOT hyperbole)...
If you saw the movie (and the above described sequence) how on Earth can you conclude that Deadshot couldnt hit any exposed portion of Caps body at will is beyond me...
And btw Nib, Deadshot hit multiple moving targets, in rapid succession, with perfect headshots...
And he did it continuously...
This is absolutely superhuman...
Yes, you are seeing no limits arguments on the pro-Deadshot side, but seeing what Deadshot can do with a gun and knowing that "perfect aim" is essentially his superpower, I think the pro Deadshot arguments are valid...
Atleast to within his stated range of accuracy; [b]4000 meters
...Thats absolutely insane Nib...
Deadshot is the number 1 marksman in the entire DC Universe for a reason...
Just think about that when you try to argue what he cant do with a gun in his hands... [/B]
Question 1: Do you think shooting at targets in the range is similar to shooting a moving target who's actively trying to hurt you?
Question 2: Do you think truly believe that he's able to hit anything at 4000 meters with just his regular guns without any prep?
Question 3: Have you ever used a shield?
Originally posted by FrothByte
Question 1: Do you think shooting at targets in the range is similar to shooting a moving target who's actively trying to hurt you?Question 2: Do you think truly believe that he's able to hit anything at 4000 meters with just his regular guns without any prep?
Question 3: Have you ever used a shield?
1) Of course not, but he did do exactly as you describe during the sequence where he took over the battle and virtually stopped the zombie/creature/whatever-the-heck-they-were single handedly...
And during that sequence he delivered perfect headshots continuously to moving targets that meant him and his team harm...
2) Yes, thats what the movie directly tells us...
The movie tells us he's accurate out to 4000 meters...
3) No, I've never used a shield...
As of 2009, a UK sniper named Craig Harrison used a L115A3(at 914m beyond the rifles recommended range) took out not one, but 2 Taliban insurgents with back to back shots at a range of 2,475 meters.
So if a real guy can make a shot like that well beyond the supposed effective range of his standard issue weapon(with no prep), why is Deadshot's on-screen statement, and one of the reasons Waller pulled him into the SS in question?
Oh, and his "regular" guns are all pretty heavily customized and unique to him. He seems to have them as standard, but for him a regular sniper rifle would probably work almost as good.
Originally posted by KingD19
As of 2009, a UK sniper named Craig Harrison used a L115A3(at 914m beyond the rifles recommended range) took out not one, but 2 Taliban insurgents with back to back shots at a range of 2,475 meters.So if a real guy can make a shot like that well beyond the supposed effective range of his standard issue weapon(with no prep), why is Deadshot's on-screen statement, and one of the reasons Waller pulled him into the SS in question?
Oh, and his "regular" guns are all pretty heavily customized and unique to him. He seems to have them as standard, but for him a regular sniper rifle would probably work almost as good.
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Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@NibTwo questions for you:
1) Have you seen Suicide Squad yet?
2) Have you shot a gun?I can answer yes to both of those questions (I own a 22 caliber rifle and a 38)...
If you saw the target practice scene, you know that Deadshots accuracy is off the charts good; no human on this Earth (in the real world or comicbook/movie world for that matter) can even remotely come close to what Deadshot displayed during that scene...
Yes they were stationary targets, but they were at various distances, and Deadshot shot multiple weapons (none of which were calibrated to him), and yet every single round hit every target in the exact same place perfectly (all absolutely perfect headshots right between the eyes and not a single round was off in the slightest)...
Over 100 rounds...
Thats crazy, insane, OMFG-did-you-see-that, good...
If you have done target practice, then you'd be able to appreciate and be in awe of what Deadshot did during that scene...
That was godlike (and in this case, that is NOT hyperbole)...
If you saw the movie (and the above described sequence) how on Earth can you conclude that Deadshot couldnt hit any exposed portion of Caps body at will is beyond me...
And btw Nib, Deadshot hit multiple moving targets, in rapid succession, with perfect headshots...
And he did it continuously...
This is absolutely superhuman...
Yes, you are seeing no limits arguments on the pro-Deadshot side, but seeing what Deadshot can do with a gun and knowing that "perfect aim" is essentially his superpower, I think the pro Deadshot arguments are valid...
Atleast to within his stated range of accuracy; [b]4000 meters
...Thats absolutely insane Nib...
Deadshot is the number 1 marksman in the entire DC Universe for a reason...
Just think about that when you try to argue what he cant do with a gun in his hands... [/B]
Sadly no, was sick during the weekend i was supposed to watch (it with the flu) and I don't pirate movies so I'll have to wait til it comes out on Bluray.
Fortunately, the feats in question are in YT for all to see. Tho, I will admit the zombie instance (where he shot targets at short range) is kinda of terrible quality. I have also seen (and posted the batman instance) and seen his deflection shot as well. But feel free to provide the "feats" I missed.
You own a gun? Ever been to a range? Got trained? If so, good. This will make it easier to explain things. Wish Time was here, I know he must have gotten marksmanship training.
Yes, I understand the level of difficulty involved in hitting a stationary target repeatedly inside the same spot. Even at a target range. Especially using a rifle at full auto (as you'll need to compensate for recoil on each round). Utterly superhuman, yes.
But so is the ability to deflect enemy fire from multiple angles with a shield as well as to anticipate gunfire froma pistol at short range and at high speed. You will need to acknowledge that Cap's defenses are superhuman as well.
You also need to acknowledge that hitting a moving, actively defending target is entirely different. That even expert marksmen would miss against targets in cover avoiding fire. And that hitting moving targets is an entirely different set of skills than shooting at a target range as there is a level of anticipation of where your target's next position will be (any hunter would know this) and that an aware, actively defending target (especially a target that knows what they're doing) makes it extemely difficult to hit precisely due to the unpredictability of their movements. At that point, it will be mostly luck.
There are different skillsets involved. There is accuracy, rangefinding, target acquisition, recoil compensation and (in the case of moving targets) ability to anticipate. Of course, I might have missed some and gotten the wording wrong as I am dictating purely from memory (and that was a long time ago) and I was taught in my native tongue. I remember my instructor used to test me on target acquisition by making me face away from the target, he'd yell "go!" And I'd turn around and fire as soon as I see the target and he'd check how many I'd get center mass. I wasn't a good shot (below average, actually) but that was one thing I was good at.
If you've ever gotten trained using a gun (hell, even if you play a bit of paintball) then you know these things and I'm sure we can both agree?
Now, it comes down to weighing DS's level of superhuman marksmanship skill vs Cap's superhuman defenses. I think here is our point of contention?
Basically, I think the that level of difficulty works against DS here, a fast moving, aware, actively defending target with most of his body behind cover with vulnerable parts moving at an unpredictable manner. DS has 2 seconds to pull off the shot before the target is on him, Cap, races shield to his side, DS raises his gun (w/c Cap,would see), aims and fires (at human speed as no one has provided and above human "feats" of quick draw), Cap anticipates it and blocks his first salvo, (if DS is in character) as it would likely be a headshot/center mass (as he is trained to do) and would likely get blocked. He has shown on screen to get flustered when his shots don't hit like they normall do (As per his encounter with Batman) and would likely waste a precious second or split second reassesing his tactics (yes ppl do need time to think when faced with an unfamiliar situation) before aiming for the legs. By this time, Cap would have covered the distance needed to safely aim block (within 50 feet IMO) him, slowly advance while defending and WTFOWN him.
Originally posted by KingD19
As of 2009, a UK sniper named Craig Harrison used a L115A3(at 914m beyond the rifles recommended range) took out not one, but 2 Taliban insurgents with back to back shots at a range of 2,475 meters.So if a real guy can make a shot like that well beyond the supposed effective range of his standard issue weapon(with no prep), why is Deadshot's on-screen statement, and one of the reasons Waller pulled him into the SS in question?
Oh, and his "regular" guns are all pretty heavily customized and unique to him. He seems to have them as standard, but for him a regular sniper rifle would probably work almost as good.
Were they aware they were getting shot? In cover? How long did it take him to line each shot? Were they out in the open? How man shots did it take for him to get these amazing hits? As he is being acknowledged for this, isn't this likely an outlier and not a standard for his accuracy?
It's not the statement in question that is the issue here. It is the fact that targets actively defending themselves are much much harder to hit and that Cap has superhuman defenses as well and the "feats" relevant to this fight to back it up. Why is his ability to defend in question?
They were walking, nearly 2 miles away. He took 3 shots, first shot hit the first guy, second shot hit the second guy, third shot hit their machine gun. Each shot took almost 5 seconds to reach them, while they were walking. So he had to lead them a full 5 seconds ahead of his rounds. ANd take into account his sniper rifle was bolt action, so that was an extra 1-3 seconds to reload after each shot.
He's being acknowledged because to date it's the longest sniper shot in human history.
I never said Cap doesn't have great defenses or feats or his shield. But it's 50m of wide open space, with nowhere for Cap to hide or hunker down aside from his shield. So that means he either has to run straight at Floyd, or some other direction and then cut back to running directly at him to get close. Running straight ahead(because it's the consensus that he'll book it at full speed to get close as fast as possible) means from the knees down at least he'll be exposed. No way he can cover a huge area with his shield and haul ass like that. Even at his speed, Floyd only has to aim at his legs and put it on full auto or 3-round burst, as he was still making perfect headshots holding the trigger down during his demonstration. If Cap completely covers his head, he's running blind, and putting himself in a worse situation.
Also, no one who has ever shot at Cap has been a good a shot as Floyd, and none of them apparently ever aim anywhere except his shield.
Cap can win, and easily, but he'd have to turtle behind the shield and hope Floyd doesn't catch a lucky shot before he empties his clip.
Originally posted by KingD19
They were walking, nearly 2 miles away. He took 3 shots, first shot hit the first guy, second shot hit the second guy, third shot hit their machine gun. Each shot took almost 5 seconds to reach them, while they were walking. So he had to lead them a full 5 seconds ahead of his rounds. ANd take into account his sniper rifle was bolt action, so that was an extra 1-3 seconds to reload after each shot.He's being acknowledged because to date it's the longest sniper shot in human history.
I never said Cap doesn't have great defenses or feats or his shield. But it's 50m of wide open space, with nowhere for Cap to hide or hunker down aside from his shield. So that means he either has to run straight at Floyd, or some other direction and then cut back to running directly at him to get close. Running straight ahead(because it's the consensus that he'll book it at full speed to get close as fast as possible) means from the knees down at least he'll be exposed. No way he can cover a huge area with his shield and haul ass like that. Even at his speed, Floyd only has to aim at his legs and put it on full auto or 3-round burst, as he was still making perfect headshots holding the trigger down during his demonstration. If Cap completely covers his head, he's running blind, and putting himself in a worse situation.
Also, no one who has ever shot at Cap has been a good a shot as Floyd, and none of them apparently ever aim anywhere except his shield.
Cap can win, and easily, but he'd have to turtle behind the shield and hope Floyd doesn't catch a lucky shot before he empties his clip.
I'm still in the CIS on part of the thread. CIS off I would agree to a Cap turtle.
Again WS aimed (who is also a skilled marksman) at Cap from several angles (aiming at his legs a few times) more than once and Cap aim blocked him just fine.
Precisely, he is being acknowledged because that is not an average performance. It is an outlier. The best sniper performance to date. And his targets were unaware so he only had to compensate for their casual movements and wind direction. Both which are predictable (tho still extremely difficult).
The funny thing is, how effective do you think this sniper would be when he has 2 seconds to take on a fast moving target where he neither has the time to aim his shot properly and that his target will be moving upredictably? I'm betting not as good.
I already narrated what I think would happen in my reply to LoM, bottom paragraph. I think it is also a good rebuttal to your assessment of the scenario.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Sadly no, was sick during the weekend i was supposed to watch (it with the flu) and I don't pirate movies so I'll have to wait til it comes out on Bluray.Fortunately, the feats in question are in YT for all to see. Tho, I will admit the zombie instance (where he shot targets at short range) is kinda of terrible quality. I have also seen (and posted the batman instance) and seen his deflection shot as well. But feel free to provide the "feats" I missed.
You own a gun? Ever been to a range? Got trained? If so, good. This will make it easier to explain things. Wish Time was here, I know he must have gotten marksmanship training.
Yes, I understand the level of difficulty involved in hitting a stationary target repeatedly inside the same spot. Even at a target range. Especially using a rifle at full auto (as you'll need to compensate for recoil on each round). Utterly superhuman, yes.
But so is the ability to deflect enemy fire from multiple angles with a shield as well as to anticipate gunfire froma pistol at short range and at high speed. You will need to acknowledge that Cap's defenses are superhuman as well.
You also need to acknowledge that hitting a moving, actively defending target is entirely different. That even expert marksmen would miss against targets in cover avoiding fire. And that hitting moving targets is an entirely different set of skills than shooting at a target range as there is a level of anticipation of where your target's next position will be (any hunter would know this) and that an aware, actively defending target (especially a target that knows what they're doing) makes it extemely difficult to hit precisely due to the unpredictability of their movements. At that point, it will be mostly luck.
There are different skillsets involved. There is accuracy, rangefinding, target acquisition, recoil compensation and (in the case of moving targets) ability to anticipate. Of course, I might have missed some and gotten the wording wrong as I am dictating purely from memory (and that was a long time ago) and I was taught in my native tongue. I remember my instructor used to test me on target acquisition by making me face away from the target, he'd yell "go!" And I'd turn around and fire as soon as I see the target and he'd check how many I'd get center mass. I wasn't a good shot (below average, actually) but that was one thing I was good at.
If you've ever gotten trained using a gun (hell, even if you play a bit of paintball) then you know these things and I'm sure we can both agree?
Now, it comes down to weighing DS's level of superhuman marksmanship skill vs Cap's superhuman defenses. I think here is our point of contention?
Basically, I think the that level of difficulty works against DS here, a fast moving, aware, actively defending target with most of his body behind cover with vulnerable parts moving at an unpredictable manner. DS has 2 seconds to pull off the shot before the target is on him, Cap, races shield to his side, DS raises his gun (w/c Cap,would see), aims and fires (at human speed as no one has provided and above human "feats" of quick draw), Cap anticipates it and blocks his first salvo, (if DS is in character) as it would likely be a headshot/center mass (as he is trained to do) and would likely get blocked. He has shown on screen to get flustered when his shots don't hit like they normall do (As per his encounter with Batman) and would likely waste a precious second or split second reassesing his tactics (yes ppl do need time to think when faced with an unfamiliar situation) before aiming for the legs. By this time, Cap would have covered the distance needed to safely aim block (within 50 feet IMO) him, slowly advance while defending and WTFOWN him.
First of all excellent post... 👆
I agree with nearly everything you said here, and yes, this fight absolutely comes down to Deadshots offense vs Caps defense (which is awesome in its own right)...
Back on page 1 (or maybe it was page 2; cant remember off hand) on this thread I said that this was a suboptimal matchup for Deadshot and picked Cap to win...
Some of the arguments here have that pick in Limbo as I can now see the fight going either way...
I 100% aree with you that if Cap closes the distance that its over for Deadshot...
But to mirror h1a8's argument, I'm not sure Cap can accelerate to top speed and reach Deadshot in 2 seconds (while deflecting automatic gunfire, protecting himself with his shield, accurately advancing on his target, while not getting hit in an exposed area)...
Yes Deadshot was taken back by Batman, but lets examine the senario; Deadshot was walking down the street, enjoying time with his daughter (they appeared to have just finished shopping), and had no idea he was about to be attacked...
Furthermore he had no idea his attacker was bulletproof until after the fact...
That situation wont be recreated here as there is no surprise element...
Anyway, in my opinion both sides of this debate has produced solid, viable, arguments to support their case on who wins this...
Given what we've seen and the arguments produced, I'd currently pick Cap to win 6/10...
IMHO being formidible enough to take 4/10 against Cap is nothing to be ashamed of...
No it's not an average performance. It's almost 2 miles away and he hit a perfect 3/3 despite every factor that comes into sniping in real life. Corliois Effect(the rotation of the Earth while the bullet is in flight), bullet weight, drag, crosswinds, etc... But he's not the first to make an impressive shot like that. He's just the latest/furthest.
So what I'm saying is if the as of now best sniper in the world, in shit conditions, made 3 consecutive shots over the span of roughly 20 seconds(include flight time + reload), then a guy who has been stated to never miss, and has shown himself to never miss, and has a big honking sign that says "lethal at 4,000 meters", why is it being questioned Floyd can make shots like that?
To answer your question though, how will Cap be moving erratically? He can only either run toward him, or run around him before eventually running toward him. And the most he can do is flip around while running, which would only slow him down. Floyd only has to clip a leg(Bucky's shots nearly crippled Cap in WS), and as I said he can switch to full auto, aim low and hold the trigger.
Also, Floyd's shining moment had him dropping dozens of those rock heads with a pistol mounted on the side of his arm. I'm pretty sure they were all headshots. If he can handle numbers like that and maintain his accuracy, why does it suddenly not matter when Cap comes into play?
Originally posted by KingD19
No it's not an average performance. It's almost 2 miles away and he hit a perfect 3/3 despite every factor that comes into sniping in real life. Corliois Effect(the rotation of the Earth while the bullet is in flight), bullet weight, drag, crosswinds, etc... But he's not the first to make an impressive shot like that. He's just the latest/furthest.So what I'm saying is if the as of now best sniper in the world, in shit conditions, made 3 consecutive shots over the span of roughly 20 seconds(include flight time + reload), then a guy who has been stated to never miss, and has shown himself to never miss, and has a big honking sign that says "lethal at 4,000 meters", why is it being questioned Floyd can make shots like that?
To answer your question though, how will Cap be moving erratically? He can only either run toward him, or run around him before eventually running toward him. And the most he can do is flip around while running, which would only slow him down. Floyd only has to clip a leg(Bucky's shots nearly crippled Cap in WS), and as I said he can switch to full auto, aim low and hold the trigger.
Also, Floyd's shining moment had him dropping dozens of those rock heads with a pistol mounted on the side of his arm. I'm pretty sure they were all headshots. If he can handle numbers like that and maintain his accuracy, why does it suddenly not matter when Cap comes into play?
See, its strong arguments like this that have me wavering on Cap winning...
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Originally posted by KingD19
No it's not an average performance. It's almost 2 miles away and he hit a perfect 3/3 despite every factor that comes into sniping in real life. Corliois Effect(the rotation of the Earth while the bullet is in flight), bullet weight, drag, crosswinds, etc... But he's not the first to make an impressive shot like that. He's just the latest/furthest.So what I'm saying is if the as of now best sniper in the world, in shit conditions, made 3 consecutive shots over the span of roughly 20 seconds(include flight time + reload), then a guy who has been stated to never miss, and has shown himself to never miss, and has a big honking sign that says "lethal at 4,000 meters", why is it being questioned Floyd can make shots like that?
To answer your question though, how will Cap be moving erratically? He can only either run toward him, or run around him before eventually running toward him. And the most he can do is flip around while running, which would only slow him down. Floyd only has to clip a leg(Bucky's shots nearly crippled Cap in WS), and as I said he can switch to full auto, aim low and hold the trigger.
Also, Floyd's shining moment had him dropping dozens of those rock heads with a pistol mounted on the side of his arm. I'm pretty sure they were all headshots. If he can handle numbers like that and maintain his accuracy, why does it suddenly not matter when Cap comes into play?
What we are discussing are 2 different skillsets. Your example has little to no bearing on this fight as no one is questioning DS accuracy.
In an evidence based debate, you need evidence to back your assertions. One, for example, would not be able to argue that a world champion boxer would be a great counterpuncher when he has never shown counterpunching in his life. He could likely be. But you cannot argue for that.
I think you mistaking our position. It is a question of DS accuracy (edit. I meant "ability to predict movement"😉 and speed vs Cap's ability to defend, not a question of Ds making a shot.
Like Froth said. If Cap leans in as he blocks, he will have near total LOS blockage of his upper body save perhaps for his legs (which will move erratically) without having to completely stop and turtle up. And Cap will likely not raise his shield as he runs, he will likely have it to his side and wait til DS opens fire (center mass or head sho as he is trained to do) to cover up. And he HAS beaten ppl to the draw with his shield before. Once his initial salvo is blocked, DS beeds to quickly reasses his situation and adjust tactics (he might get another salvo out but Cap would be close enough to predict his aim by that time and defend). Which would waste precious time (and on screen it was shown that he can get flustered) and allow Cap to close in to easy aim block range. And yes, Cap has aim blocked before.
Full auto would be bad for DS, it would force Cap to turtle up. Rifles have limited ammo. Once he's out, he won't have time to reload before Cap is on him.
It is not that we think that DS would miss. We just think Cap would be able to defend against it. And availablity of evidence is on our side.
What "erratic movement" is this you're talking about? We see in the highway scene, even running at full speed, he's still just running. One leg in front of the other.
If he does block with the shield, which is highly likely, DS can go, "Hmmm", point down and pop him in the legs. Because his first scene showed that he could turn around(after losing all pertinent data to make his shot due to taking off his lens, turning around, getting off his sighted in rifle, and his target constantly moving) and quickdraw a ricochet shot into a guys skull with a pistol on the side of his arm. He also with one arm, in the dark, was picking off scores of stone heads coming from multiple directions. Not one of them made it within what, 5 feet of him despite everyone else putting down their guns to watch the show.
Honestly, he may even get a lucky headshot as Cap doesn't tend to put his shield over his face, as people have a habit of shooting directly at his shield no matter where he's holding it.
Also take note Floyd himself stated he's a hitman, not a soldier. He wasn't trained to go for center mass/head shots like soldiers/cops. It's just easiest. He's not so dense as to realize he should put a round in this really fast guys leg if he can't shoot him in the face.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
First of all excellent post... 👆I agree with nearly everything you said here, and yes, this fight absolutely comes down to Deadshots offense vs Caps defense (which is awesome in its own right)...
Back on page 1 (or maybe it was page 2; cant remember off hand) on this thread I said that this was a suboptimal matchup for Deadshot and picked Cap to win...
Some of the arguments here have that pick in Limbo as I can now see the fight going either way...
I 100% aree with you that if Cap closes the distance that its over for Deadshot...
But to mirror h1a8's argument, I'm not sure Cap can accelerate to top speed and reach Deadshot in 2 seconds (while deflecting automatic gunfire, protecting himself with his shield, accurately advancing on his target, while not getting hit in an exposed area)...
Yes Deadshot was taken back by Batman, but lets examine the senario; Deadshot was walking down the street, enjoying time with his daughter (they appeared to have just finished shopping), and had no idea he was about to be attacked...
Furthermore he had no idea his attacker was bulletproof until after the fact...
That situation wont be recreated here as there is no surprise element...
Anyway, in my opinion both sides of this debate has produced solid, viable, arguments to support their case on who wins this...
Given what we've seen and the arguments produced, I'd currently pick Cap to win 6/10...
IMHO being formidible enough to take 4/10 against Cap is nothing to be ashamed of...
Respectable post, LoM. 👆
I have a diagram backed with facts that proves that Cap will get to DS in 2.75 seconds. And would be within aim block range by 2. It is in an easy to understand layman's format as well fo those of us who are not physics majors (tho it is simple algebra). Pls take a look and see if there is an error in my math and the evidence I derived it from. H1 just tried to dodge the facts by ignoring the evidence and clinging to his reasoning which is contradicted by the facts.
He would likely be surprised by Cap's speed and (as per OP, neither characters have knowledge of each other) he wouldn't know that Cap would be defending using his shield (I mean who does that in that on this day and age?) and that said shield is bullet proof that would be pretty surprising as well. At med-close range, he wouldn't know Cap can defend against and dodge gunfire. Still pretty surprising to me. If he gets flustered once, it's over.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Respectable post, LoM. 👆I have a diagram backed with facts that proves that Cap will get to DS in 2.75 seconds. And would be within aim block range by 2. It is in an easy to understand layman's format as well fo those of us who are not physics majors (tho it is simple algebra). Pls take a look and see if there is an error in my math and the evidence I derived it from. H1 just tried to dodge the facts by ignoring the evidence and clinging to his reasoning which is contradicted by the facts.
He would likely be surprised by Cap's speed and (as per OP, neither characters have knowledge of each other) he wouldn't know that Cap would be defending using his shield (I mean who does that in that on this day and age?) and that said shield is bullet proof that would be pretty surprising as well. At med-close range, he wouldn't know Cap can defend against and dodge gunfire. Still pretty surprising to me. If he gets flustered once, it's over.
Out of nowhere he gets attacked by Batman, then meets up with an insane clown girl, a crocodile man, a Samurai with a soul-stealing sword, and a Mexican fire demon. To fight a demonic priestess and her equally powerful brother as well as their stone minions. He took literally everything in that movie in stride.