Originally posted by operator616
There is a huge gap in terms of power level between Darkseid in Odin in their depictions. Odin is consistently portrayed as being clearly superior.I listed all his feats here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=599170&pagenumber=6
See third post. Btw, abhi, I didn't just list space cheese, there are tons of battles on the list.
You're acting like Odin has all the showings where he just snapped his hands and did everything.
For a direct comparison. Odin instantly mindraped the entire human population, while Darkseid sought to do exactly that yet couldn't and even resorted to using machines in extracting the secrets of ALE form single individuals.
Knocked out by an earthquake. Beaten and captured by space Ants.
Stan Lee Odin may have superior feats. But on average, he was right at Darkseid level.
He also fled his planet due to a rebellion, Odin would just wave his hand and deal with them all together in an instant.
Right.
Originally posted by abhilegend
[B]Ah yes, now I remember. Space Ants beating Odin and entire Asgard with guns. And selling Odin as a slave.The drugs they gave him weakened Odin in the comic where he was koed.
What a magnificent showing.
😂
Among other things like being threatened by the forever people. I honestly don't see how they can even be regarded as being close. There's a clear difference in power level. Do you think it's a coincidence that people always refer to GDS when debating about pre-Crisis Darkseid despite him having dozens of other appearances? It's because only in that arc he has good feats which he achieved through various amps. And Darkseid wasn't treated as a "superman big bad" he wasn't even a superman villain pre-Crisis. His sole goal was finding the ALE [/B]
😂
Oh and never forget three skyfathers including Odin combined full power attack was only capable of shifting a planet out of its orbit.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111134695/4232870-1702905911-38111.jpg
And even amped in Destroyer armor, his blows are merely planet shattering.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3319633-0+(28).jpg
Random kryptonians could do that pre crisis.
👆
Originally posted by abhilegend
So GLs were what, abstract level in power?
It isn't an abstract feat since it was done through the 4th dimension (time). As we've seen many times in comics, entire timelines/futures can be erased by simple actions which TT arranged. Also proven by the fact that the energies were countered by the Jaxon/Superman fight.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So you got nothing but your own interpretation of the comics.Good. When you have something which actually matters, let me know.
I should also post Odin getting beaten up by space Ants and ask you the same question.
Low showings happen. Get over it.
😂 I literally have no words for this stupidity. Did you even read the early legion stories with TT? How the fuk did you not get the impression he was weak back then? It's not my interpretation it's clear as day.
This is even more stupid, tbh. i wasn't posting it as a low showing it was simply to show how the character was portrayed back in the day
Originally posted by abhilegend
Anyway, he was called equal to Darkseid post crisis as well.http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11227127/m3.jpg.html
http://i.imgur.com/neHVpcN.jpg
B-but, he has those low showings!!!!
You are either completely blind or completely ignorant if you cannot see that all these are references to GDS Darkseid. Also in '87 (bio) he still wasn't all that.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Ultra boy was never on equal terms with Superboy or Mon-El. He even admitted so.Nice deflection though.
That's just as vague as your claim of Trapper's power source being unknown.
And he displayed other abilities. Not necessarily more powerful.
Yes he was. His powers were specifically described as such. And he even overpowers Superboy in Superboy #205. But let's not get into that. The point is bios are shit if they don't support on panel.
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's just as vague as your claim of Trapper's power source being unknown.And he displayed other abilities. Not necessarily more powerful.
We have exact comment from the comic itself that what he believed to be his full power had waned over the centuries.
So denying evidence as usual.
It did wane but he restored himself and then even got more.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Except blasting him and getting punched across the solar system. But his performance against Mon-El was below to Darkseid.
So that means GDS Darkseid (who wasn't even at full power) > Time Trapper.
So regular darkseid >> Time trapper.
Seems legit.
Originally posted by abhilegend
You don't even deny it.
I don't care to go into a personal war with you. If that's how you view me then I honestly couldn't care less.
Originally posted by abhilegend
You're acting like Odin has all the showings where he just snapped his hands and did everything.
On The other hand Odin got drained by random machine created by Orikal.Knocked out by an earthquake. Beaten and captured by space Ants.
Stan Lee Odin may have superior feats. But on average, he was right at Darkseid level.
Right.
😂
Odin has like 7 or 8 low showings out of hundreds of appearances. Darkseid has like 5 out of a few dozen and his highs are nowhere near odin's. I'm done.
Also I like how you're using Orikal as a low showing, I mean, the ant aliens is legit even though it was utter stupidity (he didn't even try to break out of chains, he could've tried teleporting for one) but Orikal?
Originally posted by operator616
There is a huge gap in terms of power level between Darkseid in Odin in their depictions. Odin is consistently portrayed as being clearly superior.I listed all his feats here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=599170&pagenumber=6
See third post. Btw, abhi, I didn't just list space cheese, there are tons of battles on the list.
For a direct comparison. Odin instantly mindraped the entire human population, while Darkseid sought to do exactly that yet couldn't and even resorted to using machines in extracting the secrets of ALE form single individuals. He also fled his planet due to a rebellion, Odin would just wave his hand and deal with them all together in an instant. Among other things like being threatened by the forever people. I honestly don't see how they can even be regarded as being close. There's a clear difference in power level. Do you think it's a coincidence that people always refer to GDS when debating about pre-Crisis Darkseid despite him having dozens of other appearances? It's because only in that arc he has good feats which he achieved through various amps. And Darkseid wasn't treated as a "superman big bad" he wasn't even a superman villain pre-Crisis. His sole goal was finding the ALE
I'm more than familiar with Odin and Darkseid. I don't need a listing of their well known feats 👆
If you think the ALE was only about controlling the Earth's population then I'd say you've grossly misunderstood it.
Originally posted by krisblaze
I'm more than familiar with Odin and Darkseid. I don't need a listing of their well known feats 👆If you think the ALE was only about controlling the Earth's population then I'd say you've grossly misunderstood it.
I understood it just fine. The ALE was locked in the minds of six humans across the Earth. This was the whole premise of the new gods and forever people titles. He could have telepathically scanned the entire Earth and extracted the ALE from their minds if GDS is his average showings, or if he was an odin-level telepath, which he most assuredly wasn't.
You also said that PC Darkseid was a Superman villain which he wasn't.
Originally posted by operator616
I understood it just fine. The ALE was locked in the minds of six humans across the Earth. This was the whole premise of the new gods and forever people titles. He could have telepathically scanned the entire Earth and extracted the ALE from their minds if GDS is his average showings, or if he was an odin-level telepath, which he most assuredly wasn't.You also said that PC Darkseid was a Superman villain which he wasn't.
Sorry, you are completely right!
I thought we were discussing pre flashpoint Darkseid 😮
But I think it's pointless to claim that Darkseid is a lesser telepath due to the premise of the ALE, especially given the inconsistencies regarding telepathy cross company.
I know you're not basing your conclusion on Darkseid's "shortcoming" there, but still.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Sorry, you are completely right!I thought we were discussing pre flashpoint Darkseid 😮
Yet for some reason you referenced a pre-Crisis JLA comic (the firestorm instance)
Worse yet, you were putting Pre-FP Darkseid on the same level as Odin.
I realize that post-crisis was basically a continuation and never underwent any major changes (even though some of the stories were retconned) but there was still a noticeable power gap.
Originally posted by krisblaze
But I think it's pointless to claim that Darkseid is a lesser telepath due to the premise of the ALE, especially given the inconsistencies regarding telepathy cross company.I know you're not basing your conclusion on Darkseid's "shortcoming" there, but still.
It's as a direct comparison as it gets between the two characters. Odin mindraped the entire human population in a couple of seconds. Darkseid sought to do exactly that, and not only wasn't able to, but resorted to using freakin' machines to extract information from single individuals.
Like I said, it isn't even that close but whatever.
Originally posted by operator616
Yet for some reason you referenced a pre-Crisis JLA comic (the firestorm instance)
I was simply listing some of the low feats that came to mind.
Originally posted by operator616
It's as a direct comparison as it gets between the two characters. Odin mindraped the entire human population in a couple of seconds. Darkseid sought to do exactly that, and not only wasn't able to, but resorted to using freakin' machines to extract information from single individuals.Like I said, it isn't even that close but whatever.
It's not a direct comparison because telepathy and scale of telepathy is wildly inconsistent between the two companies, and even within.
😂
ok, i think the gds version of darkseid has always been a bit ambiguous to say the least. was he weak at the start? i'd say that is definitely a yes. did he amp himself with outside sources? again, no doubt. the ambiguity comes in when we are then forced to ask, well, how much past his original level did the amps take him?
i dunno. maybe the writer viewed ds in such a way that he only intended to bring him back to his usual level. or maybe he was amped past, and we simply don't know how far past. it's one of the reasons i hate using gds ds as part of any ds discussion..... /shrug
i do have a question though--post crisis, in the ORION series by simonson, ds is depicted literally wiping out entire pantheons. that for me has always been pretty definitive proof he's intended to be at least on the level of odin and other high skyfathers. my question though is this: was he supposed to have acted similarly PRE- CRISIS? i mean was he believed to have wiped out pantheons pre-crisis, like he did post? it would seem so since his continuity wouldn't have changed, but i don't recall that being explicitly explained.
or maybe it was and i just can't remember anymore... 😮
Originally posted by operator616
It isn't an abstract feat since it was done through the 4th dimension (time). As we've seen many times in comics, entire timelines/futures can be erased by simple actions which TT arranged. Also proven by the fact that the energies were countered by the Jaxon/Superman fight.
Usually that is done by tempering with the present.
You are just making shit up now.
😂 I literally have no words for this stupidity. Did you even read the early legion stories with TT? How the fuk did you not get the impression he was weak back then? It's not my interpretation it's clear as day.
Let's see, you have no official retcon, no proof of a power up and nothing but your interpretation.
So yeah, that's just making shit up. Even in his initial appearance he stopped Superman and Superboy travelling through time and not even combined power of Superboy, Mon-El and Ultra boy could break the curtain.
And that was his initial appearance. Since then he was always a big threat.
This is even more stupid, tbh. i wasn't posting it as a low showing it was simply to show how the character was portrayed back in the day
This comparison wasn't made back in the day however. To claim that is sheer stupidity. [quore]
You are either completely blind or completely ignorant if you cannot see that all these are references to GDS Darkseid. Also in '87 (bio) he still wasn't all that.
[/quote]
Who was weakened all along.
Nice try.
Yes he was. His powers were specifically described as such. And he even overpowers Superboy in Superboy #205. But let's not get into that. The point is bios are shit if they don't support on panel.
What a out of context tidbit. Ultra boy never overpowered Superboy on his own. He was given drugs which made him berserker and Superboy stopped fighting back when Jo tied him with a knot which Superboy himself had taught him.
And Jo himself admitted that he was always second to Superboy and Mon-El in LOSH 231 or thereabouts.
Do no, those bios are pretty accurate.
So denying evidence as usual.
It did wane but he restored himself and then even got more.
He realized his power had waned when he thought it was at full power.
So no, he was never amped and never even implied of such in the comic.
So that means GDS Darkseid (who wasn't even at full power) > Time Trapper.
So regular darkseid >> Time trapper.
Seems legit.
Two bios, Time Trapper himself and several fights show that and you're using circular logic now?
Pathetic.
I don't care to go into a personal war with you. If that's how you view me then I honestly couldn't care less.
😂
Tell us more how Darkseid used weakness exploitation to beat Mordru off panel though.
Originally posted by operator616
Odin has like 7 or 8 low showings out of hundreds of appearances. Darkseid has like 5 out of a few dozen and his highs are nowhere near odin's. I'm done.
Except his highs are higher than Odin's.
Also I like how you're using Orikal as a low showing, I mean, the ant aliens is legit even though it was utter stupidity (he didn't even try to break out of chains, he could've tried teleporting for one) but Orikal?
Why not? Also add Mangog whose best feat is destroying a mountain and who had Odin shitting his pants.
Those galaxy busting attacks would've proven useful right there.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Usually that is done by tempering with the present.You are just making shit up now.
Making up shit? 😂 I can give you countless examples. Don't accuse me of bullshit if you're ignorant on the nature of these things.
You literally know nothing about TT though, so no surprise that you actually thought that he did this feat and worse yet, you ignored every bit of context in that scene. Namely, that it was never mentioned TT had any hand whatsoever in destroying those timelines, just that he arranged the GL energy to pour through the 4th dimension. And that Superman/Jaxon countered that level of energy.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Let's see, you have no official retcon, no proof of a power up and nothing but your interpretation.So yeah, that's just making shit up. Even in his initial appearance he stopped Superman and Superboy travelling through time and not even combined power of Superboy, Mon-El and Ultra boy could break the curtain.
And that was his initial appearance. Since then he was always a big threat.
Oh I have proof believe me. I told you that I can prove it beyond any doubt. Let's see shall we.
Your first claim of him supposedly stopping those three is true but out of context of course. Like I said in my earlier posts, he was created as a mastermind kind of villain, an evil scientist that is. Which is exactly what they referred to him on panel:
The curtain was powered by a machine, not that he created it through any magical means. Furthermore, as you've seen before, this is what happened when Superboy confronted him 1 on 1:
Then there was the time when he fought the legion individually and they held their own, every single one, even KK. It's eventually stated that the only reason Time trapper was able to hold his own against them is because he is powered by a technological device.
Finally, right before GDS we have an arc involving time trapper, where Superboy confronts him. Guess what TT does?
Resorts to using a ray gun with which he eventually gets owned by Phantom girl.
But by all means, let's act like you're not talking out of your ass. It's hilarious that you even attempted to dispute this.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Who was weakened all along.Nice try.
He had four amps as proven on panel. And confirmed in a bio. Not sure why you're putting so much stock in that "my power has waned over the millennia" claim -- it was clearly a reference to him being depowered throughout the ages after which he awakens and starts amping himself right and left.
Have fun explaining this though:
Also, if you look at how regular DS was portrayed in the New Gods comics you'll realize that it doesn't make sense for him to possess such power. DS was searching for the secrets of the ALE which he knew were locked away in the minds of 6 humans; if a weakened DS is capable of controlling billions of super powered beings, don't you think he could just telepathically scan and extract said secrets from the human population? Yet, in the entire Forever People/New Gods series, which focused on that plot, he was unable to do so.
I might also add the fact that he displayed being able to create big space warps which he never displayed in his regular self. I mean, you'd think he wouldn't use boom tubes if he was capable of this in his normal depiction.
All signs seem to lead to him being amped yet you're clinging to a single statement which you have grossly taken out of context. I'm done explaining this shit to you. You are clearly bias so you can believe what you wish.
Originally posted by abhilegend
What a out of context tidbit. Ultra boy never overpowered Superboy on his own. He was given drugs which made him berserker and Superboy stopped fighting back when Jo tied him with a knot which Superboy himself had taught him.And Jo himself admitted that he was always second to Superboy and Mon-El in LOSH 231 or thereabouts.
Do no, those bios are pretty accurate.
I knew that he went into berserk mode which is why I never claimed that he was superior. It did however confirm my claim quite clearly though
Outright contradicting what was stated in the bio, and was honestly evident throughout his appearances (one example comes to mind when he went rogue in Adventure Comics #316). Which is what's important and much more important than claims - Mon-el was once stated to be stronger than SB despite the fact a few issue earlier they were stated to be equal which their entire history seems to support.
And thanks for stating the obvious yet again. UB is of course inferior to Super boy or mon-el in terms of overall abilities since he can only use one at a time; but I was referring to his individual abilities being on par with them. Either way though, I'm not gonna get dragged into this kind of debate yet again with you. Stick to the point.
You have no clue how bios work apparently. They just tell you the general level which the character is and sometimes referring to the threat level if he's a villain especilally when it was outright stated that his abilities are not known.
Not that any of this matters because again: GDS Darkseid is the only Darkseid who is relevant in legion continuity, so all statements comparing (insert x character) to Darkseid, is essentially being compared to GDS Darkseid. but again: Believe what you wish.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Two bios, Time Trapper himself and several fights show that and you're using circular logic now?Pathetic.
Ugh, this doesn't even deserve a response.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Tell us more how Darkseid used weakness exploitation to beat Mordru off panel though.
I mis-remembered a scene. Big deal.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Except his highs are higher than Odin's.Why not? Also add Mangog whose best feat is destroying a mountain and who had Odin shitting his pants.
Those galaxy busting attacks would've proven useful right there.
Remind me again when did Darkseid do anything even remotely approaching things like destroying galaxies in his battles, shaking the multiverse, drawing the particles of all the universe, tearing a universe, or containing universal energies? Also what characters has he beaten on par with Surtur?
Because Orikal is a cosmic being. And that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in a later instance.
Either way though, I thought you didn't care about space cheese?
Originally posted by leonidas
i do have a question though--post crisis, in the ORION series by simonson, ds is depicted literally wiping out entire pantheons. that for me has always been pretty definitive proof he's intended to be at least on the level of odin and other high skyfathers. my question though is this: was he supposed to have acted similarly PRE- CRISIS? i mean was he believed to have wiped out pantheons pre-crisis, like he did post? it would seem so since his continuity wouldn't have changed, but i don't recall that being explicitly explained.
No that wasn't the case pre-Crisis.
Originally posted by leonidasA lot of people tend to overlook this, but Granny Goodness imprisoned the entire Greek Pantheon all by her lonesome during Countdown. Granted, it's an extremely high-end showing for her, but it still happened.
i do have a question though--post crisis, in the ORION series by simonson, ds is depicted literally wiping out entire pantheons. that for me has always been pretty definitive proof he's intended to be at least on the level of odin and other high skyfathers.
...And obviously Darkseid>>>>>Granny. So it *should* be within his power to casually wipe out Pantheons, imo.
Originally posted by operator616
Making up shit? 😂 I can give you countless examples. Don't accuse me of bullshit if you're ignorant on the nature of these things.
Yes, making shit up. This entire thread is proof of that.
You literally know nothing about TT though, so no surprise that you actually thought that he did this feat and worse yet, you ignored every bit of context in that scene. Namely, that it was never mentioned TT had any hand whatsoever in destroying those timelines, just that he arranged the GL energy to pour through the 4th dimension. And that Superman/Jaxon countered that level of energy.
Oh I know a lot about Trapper. In fact more than you do.
And I liked how wiping out every future timeline isn't some kind of abstract feat. But somehow that is also not important.
Oh I have proof believe me. I told you that I can prove it beyond any doubt. Let's see shall we.Your first claim of him supposedly stopping those three is true but out of context of course. Like I said in my earlier posts, he was created as a mastermind kind of villain, an evil scientist that is. Which is exactly what they referred to him on panel:
The curtain was powered by a machine, not that he created it through any magical means. Furthermore, as you've seen before, this is what happened when Superboy confronted him 1 on 1:
Then there was the time when he fought the legion individually and they held their own, every single one, even KK. It's eventually stated that the only reason Time trapper was able to hold his own against them is because he is powered by a technological device.
Finally, right before GDS we have an arc involving time trapper, where Superboy confronts him. Guess what TT does?
Resorts to using a ray gun with which he eventually gets owned by Phantom girl.
But by all means, let's act like you're not talking out of your ass. It's hilarious that you even attempted to dispute this.
Now see, this is where you are flat out wrong and about to get owned. That was literally not the Time Trapper which was compared to Darkseid. That was retconned in Legionnaires 3 as being a Controller all along.
See, Legion is my favorite team. There is nothing you show that I don't know already.
Don't try to lecture me on Legion history alright?
He had four amps as proven on panel. And confirmed in a bio. Not sure why you're putting so much stock in that "my power has waned over the millennia" claim -- it was clearly a reference to him being depowered throughout the ages after which he awakens and starts amping himself right and left.
And yet he wasn't at full power. There were no mention of him being amped. Just that he had to absorb power to get back at full power.
Have fun explaining this though:Also, if you look at how regular DS was portrayed in the New Gods comics you'll realize that it doesn't make sense for him to possess such power.
Different writers. If you look at how Gerry Conway's version of Odin and Stan Lee's Odin, they are two different characters altogether in terms of power.
DS was searching for the secrets of the ALE which he knew were locked away in the minds of 6 humans; if a weakened DS is capable of controlling billions of super powered beings, don't you think he could just telepathically scan and extract said secrets from the human population? Yet, in the entire Forever People/New Gods series, which focused on that plot, he was unable to do so.
Because as shown in DOTNG, you can't control someone with even a fraction of ALE. You are acting like plot means nothing and Darkseid could just mindrape beings who possess ALE and that's it.
I might also add the fact that he displayed being able to create big space warps which he never displayed in his regular self. I mean, you'd think he wouldn't use boom tubes if he was capable of this in his normal depiction.All signs seem to lead to him being amped yet you're clinging to a single statement which you have grossly taken out of context. I'm done explaining this shit to you. You are clearly bias so you can believe what you wish.
You are using circular logic to prove your claims. Kirby showed the New Gods to be immensely powerful. Even a random new God could channel the magnetic force of a hundred galaxies.
As GDS Darkseid never showed that level of power I suggest he was weaker than a random new God. What do you say?
I knew that he went into berserk mode which is why I never claimed that he was superior. It did however confirm my claim quite clearly though
You knew but didn't mention it? Holy out of context batman. And here just 35 issues later its pretty explicitly stated that both Superboy and Mon-el are [b]more powerful than Jo.
Outright contradicting what was stated in the bio, and was honestly evident throughout his appearances (one example comes to mind when he went rogue in Adventure Comics #316). Which is what's important and much more important than claims - Mon-el was once stated to be stronger than SB despite the fact a few issue earlier they were stated to be equal which their entire history seems to support.
And Mon-El had also been stated to be weaker than Superboy a few issues later.
And thanks for stating the obvious yet again. UB is of course inferior to Super boy or mon-el in terms of overall abilities since he can only use one at a time; but I was referring to his individual abilities being on par with them. Either way though, I'm not gonna get dragged into this kind of debate yet again with you. Stick to the point.
He has abilities similar to Superboy and Mon-El but not at their level. It has been made clear several times. Using a contradicting statement to prop up your own arguments? Pitiful.
You have no clue how bios work apparently. They just tell you the general level which the character is and sometimes referring to the threat level if he's a villain especilally when it was outright stated that his abilities are not known.
Haha, seriously?
Not that any of this matters because again: GDS Darkseid is the only Darkseid who is relevant in legion continuity, so all statements comparing (insert x character) to Darkseid, is essentially being compared to GDS Darkseid. but again: Believe what you wish.
And GDS Darkseid is weaker than the main continuity Darkseid.
Ugh, this doesn't even deserve a response.
Of course it does. You don't have a counter to it so it doesn't deserve a response.
I mis-remembered a scene. Big deal.
😂
Remind me again when did Darkseid do anything even remotely approaching things like destroying galaxies in his battles, shaking the multiverse, drawing the particles of all the universe, tearing a universe, or containing universal energies? Also what characters has he beaten on par with Surtur?
Space cheese never matters in these kind of discussion. By that level the GL which destroyed all those possible futures is abstract level and you refuse to even give the feat credit.
Mordru.
Because Orikal is a cosmic being.
Who gives a shit? When did he destroy galaxies or shook the multiverse as I take a page from you?
And that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in a later instance.
So just ABC comparison, eh?
Darkseid was compared to an AMPED Infinite Man.
And Infinite Man is several steps above Galactus, Ego and Odin combined. Heck darkseid casually created a being above Mangog. Validus.
Galactus was worth shit in silver age. It wasn't until Byrne retconned him as one of the fundamental forces of the universe he gained any sort of respect. And still doesn't comes any higher than a skyfather on average.
Either way though, I thought you didn't care about space cheese?
You do and I was taking a page from your book. Show us Mangog destroying a galaxy. Or Ego. Or Orikal.
Originally posted by Surtur
When did Mordru ever do something like destroy galaxies as a side effect of his battles? I mean Mordru when he wasn't amped by some kind of outside source.
Time Trapper has destroyed every planet and star in a universe and left only two planets for his own amusement.
Heck, Mordru was the only reason Trapper created Legion in the very first place as he could not defeat Mordru on his own. Odin is like a gnat to Trapper.
And even then Trapper only considered Legion a threat to himself when they beat Darkseid.
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