Shaak Ti vs. Darth Traya

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not Drain just because they're dead, lol. KotOR II has a distinct sound effect that accompanies usage of Drain, and that wasn't present when she killed the Sith. She's also not depicted as using Drain in the script, not to mention that it goes completely against her morals. Something like internal telekinesis would make far more sense.

Against what morals? What was in the script? The whole story of KOTOR II assassins is their ability to drain the force from their enemy. Kreia is their leader. She walks by them, they die. It doesn't have to be spelled out for you in this instance.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Against what morals? What was in the script? The whole story of KOTOR II assassins is their ability to drain the force from their enemy. Kreia is their leader. She walks by them, they die. It doesn't have to be spelled out for you in this instance.

Did you even pay attention to what Kreia said whenever the topic of Drain was brought up? Kreia rants on about how terrible such a power is, why the teaching needs to be ended, even talks about why Nihilus' power needs to die with him in the DS revelation scene in the Enclave, etc. Avellone confirms that she wouldn't want to use it, as Ancient Sith did not, because it would subsume her identity and she would become something comparable to Nihilus. The only reason she uses Drain on the Masters is to show them their hypocrisy and how they can't live without the Force, which is the quality of the Exile that she prized so much.

The script mentions her using Drain during both Enclave scenes. It doesn't mention her using Drain when she kills the assassins, only them lying dead after a "flash of black". But as I said, in-game, you don't hear any sound effects that would give away the usage of Drain, Choke etc.

It's likely that she killed them by crushing the life out of them quickly (something she's done before in the game script) or stopping their hearts or something.

Did you even pay attention to what Kreia said whenever the topic of Drain was brought up? Kreia rants on about how terrible such a power is, why the teaching needs to be ended, even talks about why Nihilus' power needs to die with him in the DS revelation scene in the Enclave, etc. Avellone confirms that she wouldn't want to use it, as Ancient Sith did not, because it would subsume her identity and she would become something comparable to Nihilus. The only reason she uses Drain on the Masters is to show them their hypocrisy and how they can't live without the Force, which is the quality of the Exile that she prized so much.

Lmfao, she is the one who taught Nihilus to take it to that level.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lmfao, she is the one who taught Nihilus to take it to that level.

No, she didn't. It came to him naturally when the Mass Shadow Generator went off. That's why Kraya says it's not a technique that can be taught.

A blind Sith Lord appears. She has felt his existence like a gaping wound through the Force. The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds. The Sith and the Force are meaningless to him, but the hunger must be appeased.

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights...

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Originally posted by AncientPower

Which is then followed by:

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yes, I've also played the game 20 times or so. Kreia is full of wisdom as well as envy and hypocrisy. I think you're confused though so I'll help you out. Her "giga drain" maybe of the same property as that of Nihilus, but it's not of the same strength.

Indeed - if it's of the same properties, then she wouldn't use it, because it would subsume her identity as it did Nihilus. Thanks for proving my point.

Revan taught this power to the sith assassins at the Trayus Academy, as well as Kreia. It doesn't affect Kreia or her assassins like it does Nihilus because it's not a "giga drain".

Revan didn't teach these powers to the Academy Sith, he learnt it from them. He did to teach it to his own sect of Assassins yes, and Traya taught it to Sion (and by extension Sion's assassins) and Nihilus.

The potency of the Drain doesn't change it's properties. It subsumes your identity - hence Kreia doesn't want to use it unless absolutely necessary. Whatever she did to the Assassins on Malachor V was clearly not Drain regardless, since the distinct sound effect is absent, it goes against her established morals, and she has no reason to use Drain when powers like telekinesis would suffice (and are far more likely).

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Which is then followed by:

She lied. She later refers to it as a teaching that must be ended before it is spread, and KotORCG confirms that she taught him to appease his hunger. BoS confirms that Darth Revan learned the technique from Zelashiel the Blasphemer, and Bane learned the technique as well. Kreia even directly states that the Assassins and Nihilus share the same power, only that Nihilus' power represents "the pinnacle of what they may achieve in time". Do you think each of the Assassins has experienced Drain as well? No, they were taught it, by Revan and her.

It can be learnt, it's just that Nihilus and the Exile, as Wounds in the Force, learnt and used it instinctively.

Indeed - if it's of the same properties, then she wouldn't use it, because it would subsume her identity as it did Nihilus. Thanks for proving my point.

Revan didn't teach these powers to the Academy Sith, he learnt it from them. He did to teach it to his own sect of Assassins yes, and Traya taught it to Sion (and by extension Sion's assassins) and Nihilus.

The potency of the Drain doesn't change it's properties. It subsumes your identity - hence Kreia doesn't want to use it unless absolutely necessary. Whatever she did to the Assassins on Malachor V was clearly not Drain regardless, since the distinct sound effect is absent, it goes against her established morals, and she has no reason to use Drain when powers like telekinesis would suffice (and are far more likely).

She lied. She later refers to it as a teaching that must be ended before it is spread, and KotORCG confirms that she taught him to appease his hunger. BoS confirms that Darth Revan learned the technique from Zelashiel the Blasphemer, and Bane learned the technique as well. Kreia even directly states that the Assassins and Nihilus share the same power, only that Nihilus' power represents "the pinnacle of what they may achieve in time". Do you think each of the Assassins has experienced Drain as well? No, they were taught it, by Revan and her.

It can be learnt, it's just that Nihilus and the Exile, as Wounds in the Force, learnt and used it instinctively.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Same strength= same problem as Nihilus. Different properties=different than Nihilus. Not to mention, it wasn't some kind of reaction to the Mass Shadow Generator that created Nihilus' hunger, not the drain itself. The drain was a consequence.. So no, I proved my point.

You just said it was of the same properties, not different ones. Stop contradicting yourself.

There were no academy sith lol. He learned it during his time on malachor V, then taught it to his assassins. Kreia did the same.

I read your earlier post wrong. You're right in that he taught it to his Assassins. But as you said, Revan learned the technique, as did Kreia. They didn't gain it from being Drained themselves as your quote implies - and neither did Sion or the Assassins. It's very much a teaching, and she lied when she said that it couldn't be taught. So yes, it can be taught.

Kreia had no morals. She did what she wanted when she wanted, whatever she deemed necessary.

Where did you get this from? Kreia's morals are the reason that she wants Nihilus and his "teaching" wiped from the face of the galaxy. She abhors the Drain power, lol. She only uses it when absolutely necessary.

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"For the pinnacle of this teaching is self-destructive, for its hunger keeps building and building until it has devoured everything, including the student. The blind seer - her Master has harnessed this technique, and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it. And the teaching must die with him, or else all life will be placed in jeopardy."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

And she wasn't lying there, because this is the DS revelation scene. She's explaining it all to the Exile. As I said, she clearly abhors Drain and would not use it incessantly like Nihilus. She only uses it with good reason - such as showing the Masters their hypocrisy and showing them a universe without the Force ("See it through the eyes of the Exile"😉. She has no reason to use it against those Sith on Malachor V, and the fact that it's not stated to be Drain in the game script (when every other application of Drain is explicitly noted by the script) and is not accompanied by the Drain sound effect in-game confirms that it isn't Drain. Game over.

Once again, the drain wasn't consuming Nihilus, his hunger was. The drain was just a side effect.

The hunger was consuming Nihilus, but the Drain was subsuming his identity. Avellone confirms as much - I'll try and get the quote for you.

Prove it. I've read those wikipedia articles too. The assassins were taught to drain the force from force users. They were not taught a giga drain because it wasn't something that could be taught.

Wikipedia? I have my own sources, lol.

Nihilus' Drain is exactly the same as Kreia's and the Assassins. She just trained him to take it further:

A blind Sith Lord appears. She has felt his existence like a gaping wound through the Force. The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds. The Sith and the Force are meaningless to him, but the hunger must be appeased.

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights...

-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

And both Revan and Bane learned the technique as well:

Drain life: A delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan.

-- Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

It's a lie that the technique can't be learned.

You just said it was of the same properties, not different ones. Stop contradicting yourself.

I read your earlier post wrong. You're right in that he taught it to his Assassins. But as you said, Revan learned the technique, as did Kreia. They didn't gain it from being Drained themselves as your quote implies - and neither did Sion or the Assassins. It's very much a teaching, and she lied when she said that it couldn't be taught. So yes, it can be taught.

Where did you get this from? Kreia's morals are the reason that she wants Nihilus and his "teaching" wiped from the face of the galaxy. She abhors the Drain power, lol. She only uses it when absolutely necessary.

And she wasn't lying there, because this is the DS revelation scene. She's explaining it all to the Exile. As I said, she clearly abhors Drain and would not use it incessantly like Nihilus. She has no reason to use it against those Sith on Malachor V.

The hunger was consuming Nihilus, but the Drain was subsuming his identity. Avellone confirms as much - I'll try and get the quote for you.

Wikipedia? I have my own sources, lol.

Nihilus' Drain is exactly the same as Kreia's and the Assassins. She just trained him to take it further:

And both Revan and Bane learned the technique as well:

It's a lie that the technique can't be learned.

The author further speculated that the character of Zelashiel either preceded the Sith King Adas or was simply a mythical legend.[4]

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
It was a typo. I meant same properties different strength.

Again, both of them learned the technique. Neither of them can giga drain anybody. That aspect belongs solely to Nihilus' due to his hunger.

Did you not read my post? The technique that the Assassins used was exactly the same as the one that Nihilus did, Nihilus just used it to a greater extent. And guess who taught him to harness it a greater extent? Traya. I provided all the quotes above, and I didn't do it so you could ignore them.

By playing the game. She frequently lies and manipulates to get her way.

Which is precisely what I'm saying. She lied when she said the technique can't be learnt. She later calls it a teaching and something that needs to die off. Other sources confirm that it can be learnt.

DS choices/scenes are considered non canon.

The fact that the actual scene didn't happen in continuity doesn't mean the content she explores in it is irrelevant, lol.

You won't get that from Avellone because you're wrong. The hunger was consuming Nihilus and the drain was keeping him alive temporarily while he was wasting away.

Avellone already made the comment. I'm right, as the quotes above already prove.

She didn't train him to take it further because he took it further before even meeting Kreia. She taught him to harness/control it.

No, the quote explicitly states that she taught him to devour worlds. Prior to that, he was leeching the life off individuals. Once again:

A blind Sith Lord appears. She has felt his existence like a gaping wound through the Force. The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds. The Sith and the Force are meaningless to him, but the hunger must be appeased.

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights...

-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Yes, they learned the force drain. They didn't learn a giga drain.

It's the same technique. Again:

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

You keep repeating yourself and blatantly ignore my quoted evidence. It's not Drain that she used on the Assassins, period.

Did you not read my post? The technique that the Assassins used was exactly the same as the one that Nihilus did, Nihilus just used it to a greater extent. And guess who taught him to harness it a greater extent? Traya. I provided all the quotes above, and I didn't do it so you could ignore them.

Which is precisely what I'm saying. She lied when she said the technique can't be learnt. She later calls it a teaching and something that needs to die off. Other sources confirm that it can be learnt.

The fact that the actual scene didn't happen in continuity doesn't mean the content she explores in it is irrelevant, lol.

Avellone already made the comment. I'm right, as the quotes above already prove.

No, the quote explicitly states that she taught him to devour worlds. Prior to that, he was leeching the life off individuals. Once again:

ou keep repeating yourself and blatantly ignore my quoted evidence. It's not Drain that she used on the Assassins, period.

He's provided a mountain of evidence, you've provided nothing but your assumptions.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's provided a mountain of evidence, you've provided nothing but your assumptions.

Yea that makes sense when you already have your mind made up, then it just looks like you're having trouble with reality. 👆

He has sourced his claims, you've openly stated your knowledge stretches between a few articles on Wookieepedia and a few playthroughs. You're arguing KOTOR2 with the guy who wrote the respect threads, played the game countless times, has read through the KOTOR2 Prima Guide and KOTOR Campaign Guide, actively researched the game's script, played the Restored Content, read through SWTOR Codex Entries, the Revan novel and the SWTOR Encyclopedia.

He has sourced his claims, you've openly stated your knowledge stretches between a few articles and Wookieepedia

You're arguing KOTOR2 with the guy who wrote the respect threads, played the game countless times, has read through the KOTOR2 Prima Guide and KOTOR Campaign Guide, actively researched the game's script, played the Restored Content, read through SWTOR Codex Entries, the Revan novel and the SWTOR Encyclopedia.

You've wrote full respect threads for the KOTOR 2 cast? Please enlighten us.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You've wrote full respect threads for the KOTOR 2 cast? Please enlighten us.

I wasn't aware a respect thread indicated full knowledge of character or characters.. But ok.