Originally posted by MythLord
Where she's consistently leaping over the trams to get to the Chancellor, and only playing defensive, yes?She kills it in seconds the moment she's actually forced to go on the offensive.
What are you talking about? It's near midnight now, so I have to hit the sack, but there's one where she's just fighting a Magnaguard for well over ten seconds and doesn't win until she exploits the trams around her and the Guard gets its staff stuck there.
The Chancellor was with Foul Moudama, so she wasn't protecting him at the time.
On the transport, where she fights one, then later we see her leap to another, implying she dropped one(several MGs were dropping from the sky, so its possible). And even disregarding that, Shaak fought the MagnaGuard in the length of time it took for another MG to leap to Foul Moudama, then Moudama to push him... so a second or two? Sure, by IRL scaling thats 10 seconds through video timestamp... but unless this is SpaceBattleForums, we don't count the time of a video in our world as time spent in their world.
Originally posted by MythLordAre you talking about this part?
The problem is Ti never struggled with a lone MagnaGuard. There's one point where several MagnaGuards jump on a transport and and we see Shaak engage one, then later leap forwards and engage another(implying she killed the other one).
https://youtu.be/64-3talVkUA?t=5m1s
Nothing supports the notion that she fought more than one Magnaguard there. Where the hell did this second one come from, and where did the first one go? Were they conjured directly out of your mind, perhaps? 😂
Then she fought one primarily in the train scene, and took a much fatter length of time to destroy it than she did to dispatch five later on. Gotta be pulling something out of your ass if you think there isn't a discrepancy here. Also, again, nothing to suggest she destroyed one in the train scene off-panel. It actually looks more like the second one she TK's is one of the original two who was in the process of looking for her.
And beaten down and "dead to rights" by a group? Hardly. She's spent a solid minute, while exhausted from running around Coruscant I may add, keeping them on the defensive and it isn't running from them so much as evading their attacks.Uh, the fight starts, she spends most of the beginning running backwards and "evading", and within twenty seconds she's disarmed and hit several times with weapons which could easily be substituted with lightsaber blades.
https://youtu.be/64-3talVkUA?t=9m26s
That she was tired doesn't mean she did anything noteworthy.
Of course, these are the same MGs that were picked as "Grievous' elite" and have challenged top tiers like Kenobi before.Proof they were the same Magnaguards?And Dooku's own inner criticizim about Grievous in one spar he had with the MGs is hardly any indication that suddenly any unpredictable fighter can speedblitz them.
Uh, he's not just criticising the sparring, his internal monologue is describing the limits of their programming. That's abundantly clear. Shall I post it again, in a large font no less? I think I'll have to:
"Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - - in the Jedi arts - - made them lethal opponents. But they were not invincible, not even Grievous, because they could be confused by unpredictability, and they had no understanding of finesse. A player of dejarik could memorize all the classic openings and countermoves, and still not be a master of the game. Defeat often came at the hands of less experienced players who knew nothing about the traditional strategies. A professional fighter, a combat artist, could be defeated by a cantina brawler who knew nothing about form but everything about ending a conflict quickly, without a thought to winning gracefully or elegantly. Enslavement to form opened one to defeat by the unforeseen. This was often the failing of trained duelists, and it would be the failing of the Jedi Order."
-Labyrinth of Evil
1. They were seen dropping out of the sky, honey. Maybe pay attention? But sure, it happens so often that a person leaps to one of their opponents, leaving another one that may target one of her allies, the Chancellor or herself while they're distracted, unguarded... Right? And even going by your logic, I already countered her exchange with said MagnaGuard happened in a slightly longer space of time it took an MG to leap to Foul Moudama, and then for Moudama to push it. Not at all a long time.
2. There were several MGs targetting all of the Jedi, so we don't know if the one she pushed is the same one from before -- it might be, or it might not be. But the fact remains she engaged two and it cut away and she was facing one and she was leaping all over the place. If that was the second MagnaGuard looking for her, he would've found her when she jumped all over the place.
3. That quote doesn't say anything about their programming, lmao. Dooku notes their programming, his training and knowledge of the Jedi arts made them lethal opponents. Then he says they're not invincible because they can get confused and notes that is due to a lack of experience... But the MagnaGuards Ti fought were the best of the best, clearly not lacking experience, from which they learn. And Dooku's monologue spawned from overseeing Grievous' spar with the 'Guards and noting he's using simple "power moves" rather than the unorthodox, which the Count always encoraged Grievous to use... It's him being mad at GG and the MGs, more than anything.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaTrying to convince any number of people of anything for a protracted period of time is futile; this is why repeat offenders like Wollf return to their old Ti arguments every time I don't participate in these threads.
Hey ILS. How've you've been? You know Maul's reputation has fallen quite a bit in... welll... everywhere!Do you plan to make a comeback or have you realized the futility of your efforts?
That said, I'm having a blast.
Originally posted by MythLordThey were indeed, and every time they did, we were made aware. Just like we were made aware whenever one was killed, and a new MG was engaging Ti.
1. They were seen dropping out of the sky, honey. Maybe pay attention? But sure, it happens so often that a person leaps to one of their opponents, leaving another one that may target one of her allies, the Chancellor or herself while they're distracted, unguarded... Right? And even going by your logic, I already countered her exchange with said MagnaGuard happened in a slightly longer space of time it took an MG to leap to Foul Moudama, and then for Moudama to push it. Not at all a long time.
Apart from, apparently, in the several off-panel moments you're referencing where Ti dispatches a MG and a new one takes its place, literally falling out of the sky. Gee, sounds convincing man. There's even a long-distance shot where a Magnaguard clings onto the transport yet we see no new additions and you want me to believe there was one anyway? Talk about wishful thinking.
2. There were several MGs targetting all of the Jedi, so we don't know if the one she pushed is the same one from before -- it might be, or it might not be. But the fact remains she engaged two and it cut away and she was facing one and she was leaping all over the place. If that was the second MagnaGuard looking for her, he would've found her when she jumped all over the place.We see her briefly combat two, then one for a longer period of time, then a second MG finds her, and she TKs it to death. The discrepancies remains that 1. it would be exceptional for any MG deaths to be off-panel and 2. she took a long time to dispatch just one of them, opposed to crowds.
As a wise man once said: "Maybe pay attention?"
3. That quote doesn't say anything about their programming, lmao. Dooku notes their programming, his training and knowledge of the Jedi arts made them lethal opponents. Then he says they're not invincible because they can get confused and notes that is due to a lack of experience...Dooku doesn't attribute shit to the Magnaguards lack of experience, he used the analogy that professional fighters often lost to less experienced fighters who used crude but effective methods.But the MagnaGuards Ti fought were the best of the best, clearly not lacking experience, from which they learn. And Dooku's monologue spawned from overseeing Grievous' spar with the 'Guards and noting he's using simple "power moves" rather than the unorthodox, which the Count always encoraged Grievous to use... It's him being mad at GG and the MGs, more than anything.
Still waiting on that proof that these Magnaguards were the same IG-101, 102 etc that fought the dream duo. Also, fab conjecture on the end; though I'm not sure how mentioning that Dooku was watching them sparring detracts from the point that he's criticising them on the whole, which is abundantly clear if you just read.
As in, there is literally nothing to suggest his criticism was isolated to that sparring match.
Originally posted by ILS
They were indeed, and every time they did, we were made aware. Just like we were made aware whenever one was killed, and a new MG was engaging Ti.
Ah, so an appeal to ignorance, wonderful. We know MagnaGuards kept spamming the Jedi and we also know that Shaak leaps to another MagnaGuard... it seems fairly reasonable another appeared or she just left one standing around.
Originally posted by ILS
Apart from, apparently, in the several off-panel moments you're referencing where Ti dispatches a MG and a new one takes its place, literally falling out of the sky. Gee, sounds convincing man. There's even a long-distance shot where a Magnaguard clings onto the transport yet we see no new additions and you want me to believe there was one anyway? Talk about wishful thinking.
I'm referencing two. That long distance shot can maybe last a second or so and happens after we see MagnaGuards landing on the transport.
And I like how you're ignoring that this was, at best, a few second exchange in-universe. It's probably about as long as her exchange with the two MGs here:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4616390-9915425756-vZ028.gif
Originally posted by ILS
We see her briefly combat two, then one for a longer period of time, then a second MG finds her, and she TKs it to death. The discrepancies remains that 1. it would be exceptional for any MG deaths to be off-panel and 2. she took a long time to dispatch just one of them, opposed to crowds.
Again, if it was an old one actively looking for her, it would've found her the moment she and the other MG leaped across the entire battlefield. Ergo, it's a new one and Shaak killed the old one.
1. An appeal to ignorance, ultimately.
2. It took her maybe 10 seconds -- again, our time, not theirs which is probably a few seconds -- to actually kill this 'Guard. Prior to that, she leaps around, looking for the Chancellor, and just plays defensive with the Guard.
Originally posted by ILS
As a wise man once said: "Maybe pay attention?"
Dooku doesn't attribute shit to the Magnaguards lack of experience, he used the analogy that professional fighters often lost to less experienced fighters who used crude but effective methods.
Sorry, I missread the part about experience in a rush. But Dooku didn't say this was a fault of their programming, just that they weren't invincible and they can be confused, and Grievous can be confused as well, as stated in the same quote. Yet he's one of the most adaptable fighters known to the entire SW universe.
They learn from experience, and the MGs Grievous brought were his best.
Originally posted by ILS
Still waiting on that proof that these Magnaguards were the same IG-101, 102 etc that fought the dream duo.
I mean, they were the exact same MGs that accompanied Grievous to Coruscant, but I believe that there's a quote saying it was Grievous' finest batch or something like that.
We also know Grievous hand-picked them for what he viewed as the Confederacy's "greatest assigment", so he definitely chose the best.
Originally posted by ILS
Also, fab conjecture on the end; though I'm not sure how mentioning that Dooku was watching them sparring detracts from the point that he's criticising them on the whole, which is abundantly clear if you just read.[
As in, there is literally nothing to suggest his criticism was isolated to that sparring match.
Because Dooku was "disgusted" that Grievous and his MGs weren't using the unorthodox, so he thought about how unpredictability is crude, yet effective, and why it should be used.
