Shaak Ti vs. Darth Traya

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You are missing the point. A giga drain/greater extent/nobody else can use it means precisely that it can't be taught, which is consistent with what KOTOR and I have been saying.

As outstanding as your ability to ignore quotes right in front of you is, the reason that Nihilus' Drain is taken to such an extent is because of Kreia's teachings. For the final time:

A blind Sith Lord appears. She has felt his existence like a gaping wound through the Force. The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds. The Sith and the Force are meaningless to him, but the hunger must be appeased.

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights...

-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

But of course, what does the continuation of blatantly ignoring evidence matter?

There are no other sources. The only source is a vague reference to the Blasphmer who may or may not have been a mythical figure.

I don't have time to waste on this. I've already posted quotes above, excluding BoS, that prove that it's a teaching.

It's pretty irrelevant.

And you've decided this because it debunks everything you've said? Wonderful. Concession accepted.

Except you haven't actually quoted Avellone have you?

Tragically, I can't find his quote. Perhaps DarthAnt66 or Selenial might have it on them.

And once again, it was explicitly stated that it cannot be taught.

Which, as I've explained to you, could well be a lie. The fact that you can go around claiming that she lies about this and that but can't accept that the sole quote your entire argument hinges on might be a lie is something of a double standard, don't you think?

She goes on to contradict herself when she's revealing the truth to you in the Enclave. But of course, that's what you dismiss, since you can't have your argument being contradicted, can you?

Your best case scenario would be to argue that her "it cannot be learned" quote refers to not being able to be learned conventionally. Any Sith who embraces Malachor V and the Trayus Academy learns the technique, since they "experience its effects first-hand" as your quote suggests.

You didn't provide any evidence, especially since everything points to the death of the Assassins being the result of a drain.

Indeed? From where I'm standing, the only thing pointing to the death of the Assassins being the result of Drain is your penchant for ignoring evidence that's right in front of you.

You haven't shown me anything that proves that Traya Drained them. By contrast, the fact that the distinct Drain sound effect isn't heard, and the fact that it isn't stated to be Drain in the script even though every other instance of Drain being used is mentioned in the script, pretty much blows your argument apart. Whatever we hypothesize is the cause of their death, it's not Drain.

It's likely to be similar to how she curbed Bao-Dur:

{[Gameplay Programmer: Bao-Dur pauses as he hears this, then begins to fall to one knee, being crushed by Kreia's telekinetic powers.]}

{[Gameplay Programmer: Bao-Dur begins to choke, being crushed by Kreia.]}

{[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia stands as Bao-Dur falls behind her.]}

-- KotOR II Game Script

Only in this case, Kreia doesn't need to keep them alive, and simply killed them - and quickly.

Gotta love how Nihilus' holocron can impart his drain, teaching it to others. But nope Syndicate's opinion > all.

I mean even Palps Dark Adepts knew Drain, so it's clearly a technique that can be taught.

Different drain.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Different drain.

Which Drain? I haven't seen any other kind of Drain.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Different drain.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Which Drain? I haven't seen any other kind of Drain.

Force Drain is an entire spectrum of powers. There's ones that are simply siphoning the life energy of others, and there's others which also drain the Force connections of others (the KotOR II version), which is actually akin to tapping into the Force, but instead of the Force, you tap into somebody else's Force connection.

Ti MIGHT take sabers but it should be a fairly straight forward victory for Traya.

I'm still curious to see what it is that actually gives Ti the edge in sabers.

I think it's a mixture of underestimating/lowballing Traya's skill and exaggerating Shaak's saber feats. something I'm perhaps guilty of...

No, I mean saber feats, accolades, etc.

Beating Galen in sabers, holding off a big number of Magnaguards, implied that only the most skilled of the prime of the jedi can stand against her.

But ofc you know all of these.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As outstanding as your ability to ignore quotes right in front of you is, the reason that Nihilus' Drain is taken to such an extent is because of Kreia's teachings. For the final time:

But of course, what does the continuation of blatantly ignoring evidence matter

This was after Nihilus had acquired the technique. She didn't teach the actual technique to him, she merely taught him how to embrace his power. Those quotes contradict nothing.

It contradicts what he claimed about Nihilus' technique being different from everybody else's because of its sheer magnitude.

@Zoltan - Not sure how the first one puts her over Traya. Second one's circumstantial and the third one... isn't accurate.

Because Galen > Traya; There were negative circumstances affecting Shaak, as well(like being massively outnumbered by beings who adapt to nearly anything and excel at fighting as a group) and being exhausted from running around Coruscant with no pause; and the third one is a canon statement so... yeah. 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure how the first one puts her over Traya.

Yeah I'm not sure either how being better than someone who was ruthlessly trained by Vader, all but perfected lightsaber combat, mastered Juyo, Shien, and Soresu, and is as competent a duelist as he is powerful in the force would put Shaak above Traya mmm

Originally posted by SunRazer
Second one's circumstantial

inb4 ILS Magnaguard lowballing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
and the third one... isn't accurate.

Right. Let me know when you have canon authority, until then I'll take these over your low opinion of Shaak:

"Only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!"
--The Clone Wars Adventures

The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order and among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat.
--The Force Unleashed campaign guide

Zoltan, where do you have Shaak Ti? Kenobi level?

Yes.

👆 Good