Darth Vader and Exar Kun vs. SWTOR Vitiate

The full quote starts out with Galen gaining the advantage before any meaningful comments are exchanged and Galen GAINING strength rather then Vader weakening.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot.

Then it continues on with Galen making his meaningful comments.

"You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot." - The Force Unleashed.

Note that Vader was already on his back foot before Galen said anything meaningful to him. I find it more likely that Vader tried to pull back because he knew Galen had the advantage in their duel, not because Galen's words affected him in any meaningful way.

So because he knew Galen had an advantage, he opted to concede a further advantage by pulling out of the blade lock?

Regardless, you didn't answer my question, I can only assume that's because you don't have one. 🙂

He opted to withdraw from a lightsaber engagement he was losing perhaps to further assault him with Force attacks or maneuver the fight to an area of the room that would better favor him.

What was your question? Why would it mean he wouldn't be effected by Galen's words?

If that's your question, then here's my answer.

In no way am I saying that it's impossible they didn't, I'm saying that it's rather unlikely, and that if it did, any effect it had on Vader's performance in the fight would have been negligible. I believe this to be the case based on the fact that Vader by this point has had nearly two decades to solidify himself in the Darkside and by this point has already grown to take pleasure in his actions as Darth Vader. The things Galen is telling him are probably things he hears all the times from Rebels captured for interrogation or the media outlets of Rebellious planets.

I may be incorrect but I believe even on the matter of Padme he'd come to accept that she had brought her fate down upon herself and deserved what she got for betraying him. Could be wrong about that though.

Regardless when the text is stating that Galen is gaining in strength and driving Vader back before he makes any comments that should reasonably be affecting Vader's performance I don't find it a likely outcome that Galen continuing to make comments that might be construed as more meaningful is going to be the reason for the ultimate outcome of the fight, I.E. Vader's defeat.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
What a Cicrle jerk. In the Graphic novel at least, he has no real dueling feats that establish him as a master warrior. Even the Proxxy droid basically forces him to use his Lightning when taking on the Kenobi model - despite being far weaker than Kenobi himself.

Luckily the graphic novel is not the only source pertaining to TFU or Galen's technical skill.

And that is not the case in the novel.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He opted to withdraw from a lightsaber engagement he was losing perhaps to further assault him with Force attacks or maneuver the fight to an area of the room that would better favor him.

What was your question? Why would it mean he wouldn't be effected by Galen's words?

If that's your question, then here's my answer.

In no way am I saying that it's impossible they didn't, I'm saying that it's rather unlikely, and that if it did, any effect it had on Vader's performance in the fight would have been negligible. I believe this to be the case based on the fact that Vader by this point has had nearly two decades to solidify himself in the Darkside and by this point has already grown to take pleasure in his actions as Darth Vader. The things Galen is telling him are probably things he hears all the times from Rebels captured for interrogation or the media outlets of Rebellious planets.

I may be incorrect but I believe even on the matter of Padme he'd come to accept that she had brought her fate down upon herself and deserved what she got for betraying him. Could be wrong about that though.

And while I concede that Marek himself evidently underwent an increment in his own strength and confidence, to dismiss the possibility of Vader undergoing a similar shift in mindset strikes me as insensible, when a meaningless taunt was enough to tick Vader off just prior.

You say that Vader are "things he hears all the time" but frankly that's rather unlikely, because what Marek is saying to Vader is profoundly personal. tThe Rebels no nothing of Vader's origins or his personal struggle, at best they can call him a monster but that's not what Marek is doing, he is calling Vader out on his convictions to be a monster because he knows they are lacking, that in reality he is a pitiful "creature" being manipulated by the Emperor like Marek was. Marek is highlighting perhaps the most fundamental contradiction in Vader, namely that he serves the person he hates the most, and that's got to impact his convictions.

Regardless when the text is stating that Galen is gaining in strength and driving Vader back before he makes any comments that should reasonably be affecting Vader's performance I don't find it a likely outcome that Galen continuing to make comments that might be construed as more meaningful is going to be the reason for the ultimate outcome of the fight, I.E. Vader's defeat.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Perhaps but that makes it a conciliatory gesture, Vader let Marek win the blade lock because Vader didn't think he could win, which reflects a uncharacteristic lack of determination on his part, of a will to fight. This being within the contexts of Marek attacking his convictions, just as Luke did in RotJ, and to similar effect.

And while I concede that Marek himself evidently underwent an increment in his own strength and confidence, to dismiss the possibility of Vader undergoing a similar shift in mindset strikes me as insensible, when a meaningless taunt was enough to tick Vader off just prior.

You say that Vader are "things he hears all the time" but frankly that's rather unlikely, because what Marek is saying to Vader is profoundly personal. tThe Rebels no nothing of Vader's origins or his personal struggle, at best they can call him a monster but that's not what Marek is doing, he is calling Vader out on his convictions to be a monster because he knows they are lacking, that in reality he is a pitiful "creature" being manipulated by the Emperor like Marek was. Marek is highlighting perhaps the most fundamental contradiction in Vader, namely that he serves the person he hates the most, and that's got to impact his convictions.True but between a contest of relative equals its not surprising that with a surge of strength Marek would have been initially able to do so, there is a difference between that and blowing through his defences entirely.

Or a characteristic which he demonstrates often, intelligence and awareness of his own capabilities and that of his opponent.

A comment related to his family ( specifically a father, something he himself never had and something he himself never got to be ) a topic he's always been touchy about.

Granted but we know that Xizor and various Imperial Moffs have called out Vader for being a slave to the Emperor, no more then an attack with no ambition of his own. While they're not personally calling him out for serving a man he hates neither is Galen. Whether or not you believe comments like those effect Vader profoundly and specifically in combat is up to your personal view point.

I can agree to that.

With his talismans and with Vitiate being on neutral ground, Kun compares to him. Vader's powerful and tanky enough to not be slaughtered, either. Vitiate can beat either, but he can't invest all of his power or attention on any one individual here without being curbed by the other. He loses this one.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Or a characteristic which he demonstrates often, intelligence and awareness of his own capabilities and that of his opponent.

A comment related to his family ( specifically a father, something he himself never had and something he himself never got to be ) a topic he's always been touchy about.

It's pretty obvious that the latter is an infinitely more "touchy" subject.

Granted but we know that Xizor and various Imperial Moffs have called out Vader for being a slave to the Emperor, no more then an attack with no ambition of his own. While they're not personally calling him out for serving a man he hates neither is Galen.

"You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you."

That's hitting rather close to the bone in regards to Vader's reality. And within those contexts what he says next:

"You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel."

Is rather more hard hitting that simply "hurr durr your Palpy's slave" wouldn't you think? Especially within the contexts of a lightsaber duel where your mental state critical. Regardless, I want to build on this point by looking at the final moments of the fight, which I find particularly telling:

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.

It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone.

His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.

He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.

The apprentice stood over him with his lightsaber upraised and ready to strike. His former Master was trying to stand, feebly willing his massive bulk to move as it was supposed to. Servomotors whined and strained. When he rolled over, the apprentice froze.

Darth Vader's helmet had been ripped away by the blast. Beneath was the face of the man who had stolen and enslaved him, a pathetic, hairless thing covered in wrinkles and old scar tissue. Only the eyes showed the slightest signs of life: blue and full of pain, they stared up at him with undisguised weariness.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Whether or not you believe comments like those effect Vader profoundly and specifically in combat is up to your personal view point.

The idea that it played no part in Vader's defeat therefore, despite the psychology of the opponents being a significant part of the narrative, and of SW in general, strikes me as a misreading.

I'l respond to you tomorrow. I'm debating several youtube commenters at the moment and they seem stubborn.

After a brief scan though I can tell your post is going to be both an interesting read that relies slightly too much on assumption but is insightful nonetheless.

Make it Valkorion then we have a matchup 🙂

Managed to deal with the fodder. 🙂

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
After a brief scan though I can tell your post is going to be both an interesting and informed read that opens my eyes to the truth.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes Vader acts intelligently, but retreat is hardly in his vocabulary, nor is it characteristic for him to be intimidated by his apprentice or attempt aggression before concession, so to speak. Often in the most dire of circumstances Vader opts to go down fighting. At least from a narrative perspective this is how Vader is presented, so however logical an explanation a retreat on Vader's part may be, "Vader tried to pull away" resonates with an intimidation and even desperation that just doesn't suit his image. And which do you think would hit harder, the fact he never had a daddy or the crushing reality of his present situation?

It's pretty obvious that the latter is an infinitely more "touchy" subject.Likening Marek's words to simply calling him a slave is the oversimplify what he's saying. You say he's not calling him out for serving a man he hates and yet Marek seems to have instinctive knowledge that that is the case considering what he says:

"You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you."

That's hitting rather close to the bone in regards to Vader's reality. And within those contexts what he says next:

"You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel."

Is rather more hard hitting that simply "hurr durr your Palpy's slave" wouldn't you think? Especially within the contexts of a lightsaber duel where your mental state critical. Regardless, I want to build on this point by looking at the final moments of the fight, which I find particularly telling:
So Marek lands a blow, but there is "no blood", and Vader being Vader, such an injury isn't necessarily going to be crippling, nor does he appear to be crippled by it.
Then Vader laughs, and in it "the apprentice heard a decade and half of torture and abuse" with dovetails rather nicely with Marek's previous attack on Vader's convictions, as a pitiful and broken slave to the Emperor. And who is he mocking here, Marek, or himself?.Then Vader pretty much gets evicerated, despite having suffered only a single injury, and having powered through far worse in the past, it appears that he's practically given up, or at the very least lost all confidence and conviction. Most telling is the final line that "His power over the apprentice, however, had gone", Marek has achieved the firm psychological edge.
Then he proceeds to whoop Vader's ass, telekinetically dominating him with pitiful resistance, this is again the same Vader who has previously performed under such circumstances, here he getting ragdolled like a sack of shit, he's barely putting up a fight.Now we have another telling moment. Instead of Marek finding a raging angry Sith Lord with glowing yellow eyes, spitting in his face and what not in the face of defeat, he's a "pathetic, hairless thing [...] with undisguised weariness". Vader is tired, and not just physically but evidently mentally, Marek has broken his spirit.This is true, but that it did not is yours. Ultimately these are the indications I'm getting from the text, and again the psychological aspect of a duel cannot be underestimated, not when we have Anakin destroying Dooku, Kenobi defeating Anakin, Kanan defeating the Inquisitor, and especially Luke defeating Vader (remember, Starkiller was intended to be a photonegative of Skywalker) where all determined primarily by a mental advantage, as where many others contests.

The idea that it played no part in Vader's defeat therefore, despite the psychology of the opponents being a significant part of the narrative, and of SW in general, strikes me as a misreading.

On this point I have to heartily disagree. Retreat is certainly in his vocabulary. He retreated from a large mob of non force sensitives, fell back under the onslaught of multiple Jedi and has given ground in many of his duels.

I believe that thinking about his dead child and how his own actions caused him to never get to be a father himself might very well hit as hard as Galen confronting him with the reality of his situation something he himself is very much aware of as evidenced by Galen's existence in the first place.

Fair enough. The added comment by Galen of having broke down who he was before probably would have affected him more then offhand comments by Imperial rivals though as I've mentioned Vader is not ignorant to this fact which is why he trained Galen in the first place and cloned him against upon Galen's death and why he went searching for items such as the Muur Talisman.

I take that line to mean Galen is remembering a decade and a half of torture he himself has suffered at the hands of Vader.

To elaborate the reason I believe it's referencing Galen's thoughts is from the passage directly after.

"Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking." - The Force Unleashed.

I ask myself, why would Galen become angry upon realizing Vader's suffered a decade and a half of torture and abuse? Because he still did the same to him? Unlikely imo and made even more unlikely when you consider the text calls Vader's laugh "mocking."

Now this is where I have to point out that you're relying heavily on assumption of Vader's mental state. It could simply be that Galen possessing greater force reserves has simply outlasted him in their high intensity duel to the point Vader can no longer compete similar to Anakin and Dooku this in conjunction with several injuries of unknown severity makes it far more likely that exhaustion and injury are the cause of Vader's lacking lackluster performance rather then a loss of confidence.

Again I'll point you to my above post. I find injury and exhaustion to be a far more likely factor in Vader's performance then a sudden lapse in confidence.

This is the first really solid point I've seen you make. I will say I attribute this more to exhaustion then anything else. Vader's reserves are run dry by this point. But it's likely that he's reflecting on the events that have brought him to this point similar to Dooku. And like Dooku who didn't even bother to say anything as he was about to be executed by Anakin he makes no move beg his master to intervene. He knows he's beaten and he knows begging Vader for mercy would be pointless so what's the point?

While it may have been a factor or played a part I think you're overplaying its importance tbh and reaching in some areas to do so.

Welp. I don't know about you but I don't think there's much more to be had from further discussion aside from us nitpicking each other's posts to gain a minor edge in support of our stances which we ultimately disagree on.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
On this point I have to heartily disagree. Retreat is certainly in his vocabulary. He retreated from a large mob of non force sensitives, fell back under the onslaught of multiple Jedi and has given ground in many of his duels.

I believe that thinking about his dead child and how his own actions caused him to never get to be a father himself might very well hit as hard as Galen confronting him with the reality of his situation something he himself is very much aware of as evidenced by Galen's existence in the first place.

Fair enough. The added comment by Galen of having broke down who he was before probably would have affected him more then offhand comments by Imperial rivals though as I've mentioned Vader is not ignorant to this fact which is why he trained Galen in the first place and cloned him against upon Galen's death and why he went searching for items such as the Muur Talisman.

I take that line to mean Galen is remembering a decade and a half of torture he himself has suffered at the hands of Vader.

To elaborate the reason I believe it's referencing Galen's thoughts is from the passage directly after.

"Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking." - The Force Unleashed.

I ask myself, why would Galen become angry upon realizing Vader's suffered a decade and a half of torture and abuse? Because he still did the same to him? Unlikely imo and made even more unlikely when you consider the text calls Vader's laugh "mocking."

Now this is where I have to point out that you're relying heavily on assumption of Vader's mental state. It could simply be that Galen possessing greater force reserves has simply outlasted him in their high intensity duel to the point Vader can no longer compete similar to Anakin and Dooku this in conjunction with several injuries of unknown severity makes it far more likely that exhaustion and injury are the cause of Vader's lacking lackluster performance rather then a loss of confidence.

Furthermore if Dooku can "open a channel" to refresh his Force reserves after they'd been exhausted by Anakin, I see not what's stopping Vader from getting a second wind, usually he tends to when confronted by pain and injury. Frankly, post-amputation Vader showed more determination.

Again I'll point you to my above post. I find injury and exhaustion to be a far more likely factor in Vader's performance then a sudden lapse in confidence.

This is the first really solid point I've seen you make. I will say I attribute this more to exhaustion then anything else. Vader's reserves are run dry by this point. But it's likely that he's reflecting on the events that have brought him to this point similar to Dooku. And like Dooku who didn't even bother to say anything as he was about to be executed by Anakin he makes no move beg his master to intervene. He knows he's beaten and he knows begging Vader for mercy would be pointless so what's the point?

However, and not to be cliche, but it rings true that the eyes are the window to the soul, especially within the contexts of a narrative. You can almost always be sure that when an author is describing what's going on in someones eyes, they are describing a mental state as well. In that respect it seems an oversimplification to conclude he's just tired, when its obvious the author is trying to make a contrast between the intimidating exterior of Vader, and the pathetic creature underneath - a weariness of character is practically explicit.

As for Dooku well that's an excellent example, he's reflecting not just on the fact that he's lost the duel and is about to die, but that his entire life has been a sham. Likewise Vader is surely thinking on something more than the fact he's lost the duel, like him being the pathetic creature that Marek described.

Regardless I said nothing of begging for mercy, quite the opposite, for example when Vader is left battered and beaten by the Jedi who ambush him on Kessel, he, damaged, amputated and weaponless, states he will "destroy you all", it's that kind of defiance in the face of defeat that would be more characteristic of him. The lack of yellowness in his eyes also suggesting that he's not fully seated in the dark side.

While it may have been a factor or played a part I think you're overplaying its importance tbh and reaching in some areas to do so.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Welp. I don't know about you but I don't think there's much more to be had from further discussion aside from us nitpicking each other's posts to gain a minor edge in support of our stances which we ultimately disagree on.

However, I am prepared to agree to disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

But I'll read it over and respond to any of the points I feel need clarifying.

You've convinced me. 🙂

I'll concede the point that upon realizing Galen had him outclassed Vader lost confidence and thus some of his combative effectiveness.

I however retain the stance that Vader was simply outclassed as a combatant which is what lead to his lack of confidence near the tail end of the fight.

So essentially I agree with the end result but not the cause leading up to it that you suggested. Galen beginning to gain the advantage over Vader as he sought a better way to defeat him was because of Galen's own ability, in other words.

Also it should be noted that Galen likely has greater force reserves then Vader anyways. It would explain why they were fighting evenly throughout most of the fight before Galen starts to gain advantage. He simply outlasted him. It also helps to explain the performance of the Starkiller clone against Vader. He didn't have the time for a prolonged Vader with a dying Juno nearby which caused him to fight wrecklessly in an effort to end the fight quickly. Something inadvisable against a more cautious and prepared Vader.

I am well pleased. 🙂

However, I'll have to agree to disagree that Marek's Dun Moch did not play a part in that loss of confidence.

And surely if you acknowledge that Vader & Marek were fighting evenly before this event then the idea that Marek "outclassed" him is inarguable, evidently there exists parity.

I disagree, but I understand why you hold your stance.

You misunderstand. I mean that Galen outclassed him BECAUSE he had superior force reserves and thus greater endurance and more potent Force attacks and defenses. They are indeed peers as lightsaber combatants but as OVERALL combatants I'd place Galen above by a solid margin.