Great Battles Vol 1: Darth Plagueis vs. Vitiate (Revan novel)

Started by The_Tempest14 pages
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Except you ignore where he discusses creating a defense for it, being READY for Vitiate's attack and channeling light and dark sides equally to do that. Those are 3 pretty important things to consider before thinking Plagueis can win this.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm just pointing out to you that the effort wasn't so much an actual defense as it was an attack on Vitiate while his strength was diverted.

Sure. So I guess you'll need to prove Plagueis can do that before Vitiate attacks his mind. But Plagueis doesn't know Vitiate is going to mindrape him does he? So he's not going into the fight fully prepared for that. That's where he loses.

Not at all. Plagueis, like Revan, should be able to sense Vitiate's mental intrusion and respond accordingly. Which is what Revan did. Then it's merely a matter of interrupting Vitiate before the attempt can complete itself.

What's ludicrous is that you can't even comprehend basic sentences, and you have the face (or lack of it) to try and defend yourself after that.

You've already said that before. That must be your go to response after getting your ass kicked each time. Good job, move along and let the adults talk.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm just pointing out to you that the effort wasn't so much an actual defense as it was an attack on Vitiate while his strength was diverted

But it was both, lol. He defended the mind wipe and turned it into an attack. One doesn't preclude the other.


Not at all. Plagueis, like Revan, should be able to sense Vitiate's mental intrusion and respond accordingly. Which is what Revan did. Then it's merely a matter of interrupting Vitiate before the attempt can complete itself.

It's not merely interrupting. It's how one can "interrupt" this attack. I'm sure every capable force user can "sense" a mind attack coming. The fact that nobody was able to stop it until someone came up with a defense for it after years of practice, should tell you something.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You've already said that before. That must be your go to response after getting your ass kicked each time. Good job, move along and let the adults talk.

Adults? Every time you run out of steam, you deflect the points, claim that you kicker the other person's ass, and tell them to leave. You might want to sit down, junior.

Now, do you have a case here, or are you going to keep telling me that this is ludicrous and that's ludicrous and not offer an argument, let alone evidence?


Adults? Every time you run out of steam, you deflect the points, claim that you kicker the other person's ass, and tell them to leave. You might want to sit down, junior.

That's a nice rationalization from someone that keeps getting his ass "kickered". lol

Now, do you have a case here, or are you going to keep telling me that this is ludicrous and that's ludicrous and not offer an argument, let alone evidence?

So your argument boils down to "Here's what I said, prove me wrong!" Wow. That's way too easy. The cases have been made, I think Gideon and I will take it from here while you continue to *****.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
That's a nice rationalization from someone that keeps getting his ass "kickered". lol

If that's what you want to believe, sure. Repeating your illusions of dominance ad nauseam until other people are too tired to bother with you doesn't count as a victory, but I'm sure you won't see eye-to-eye with me on that one.

So your argument boils down to "Here's what I said, prove me wrong!" Wow. That's way too easy. The cases have been made, I think Gideon and I will take it from here while you continue to *****.

And you doing exactly this in the thread about holocrons is perfectly justifiable?

And you doing exactly this in the thread about holocrons is perfectly justifiable?

Except I've offered all of the arguments, to which you had no response other than baseless assertions that you wanted me to disprove. I think I rest my case, again.

Me: "Prove that it's exclusive solely to Bane. Prove to me that any Sith has ever withheld knowledge from their holocron."

You: "I don't have to."

Huh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Me: "Prove that it's exclusive solely to Bane. Prove to me that any Sith has ever withheld knowledge from their holocron."

You: "I don't have to."

Huh.

Me: Here's proof
You: I can't hear you, so everything you just said to me I'll repeat to you just to have the last word and save face..

Good job my emotional friend. Now I would advise you to stop bringing other threads into this one. I'll be more inclined to respond to you from now on when you are capable of forming an argument or at the very least, stop beating your keyboard in anger.

Biiiitchiiinnnggggg.......

Originally posted by SunRazer
Biiiitchiiinnnggggg.......
So your argument boils down to "Here's what I said, prove me wrong!" Wow. That's way too easy. The cases have been made, I think Gideon and I will take it from here while you continue to *****.

I like how you repeat me, like clockwork. Lets move on now shall we? I'll give you time to recover emotionally.

I'm oh-so-inclined to think that it's just two Intrepid accounts messing with each other, lmao.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm oh-so-inclined to think that it's just two Intrepid accounts messing with each other, lmao.

If I'm "intrepid" and I can reduce your arguments to the point where you're just posting so you can get the last word in and save face, I don't know which member to call you. DMB? TI? But lets move on shall we? You'll regroup and be better than ever!

The fact that you know about Intrepid vs DMB is only proving my point, lol.

I've been more than willing to give you the last word, lol. That doesn't mean I can't float around and say what I want, either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]The fact that you know about Intrepid vs DMB is only proving my point, lol.


The fact that this somehow proves your point is why you can't follow these discussions properly. I just gave you a name I've heard on these forums and you jump at it. So once again, if I'm intrepid and I have no problems dealing with you, who are you exactly? Now that we got that out of the way, lets move on before we both get a warning from the mods.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The fact that this somehow proves your point is why you can't follow these discussions properly. I just gave you a name I've heard on these forums and you jump at it. So once again, if I'm intrepid and I have no problems dealing with you, who are you exactly? Now that we got that out of the way, lets move on before we both get a warning from the mods.

I'm getting precisely the reaction I'm expecting.

Although I'm surprised that you actually care about a warning from the mods. In that event, sure, let's stop this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm getting precisely the reaction I'm expecting.

Although I'm surprised that you actually care about a warning from the mods. In that event, sure, let's stop this.

I'm not interested in another thread being derailed and i don't say that often.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say it took centuries to form a nexus, but it took centuries to make it what it was by TOR, which is the only time we know how potent it is.

No comments.

But to return to my Aborah comparison, starting out with two non-nexus locations, Plagueis produced a comparably powerful nexus in immeasurably smaller timeframes than the centuries of rituals that Vitiate did in the Dark Temple.[/QUOTE]
You quoted the wrong revelation, my friend.

The Dark Temple (and surrounding regions) morphed into a powerful nexus of Dark Side energy as a side-effect of Vitiate's Dark practices in there.

This:

Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet

- commenced the corruption of the environment of planet Dromund Kaas on planetary-scale. The permanent corruption of atmospheric layers resulted in virtually endless stormy situations and rendered the notion of Day and Night irrelevant in the entire planet. The rest was trickle-down effect.

I don't think that the corruption of the planet's atmosphere was a lengthy process in itself but the holistic corruption effort might have spanned decades.

I get the impression that experiments such as the Dark Temple indirectly contributed to the corruption of the environment of the planet.

Nonetheless, Vitiate's accomplishment in this area is unparalleled.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, I'd hope that the effects are permanent, since they're caused by his rituals. I mean, if they were as long-lasting as something that was caused by Plagueis' mere presence, then I think I'd hand Plagueis the landslide victory here 😂

I believe that fellow member Nephthys has addressed this part.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And yet you continue to show that you can't read with the very comment underneath. For one, I said half-planetary, and secondly, it's all of the locals, not just one, lol.

I see it as continent-level at best.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So the consensus is that Vitiate's primary hope for victory here is his ability to mind control Plagueis.

That's not an encouraging sentiment for #teamswotor.


I don't think it is that simple.

Does Darth Plagueis have an answer for Vitiate's FLS and Sith Sorcery?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All Revan did to "resist" the attack was to interrupt Vitiate while the attempt was being made. Plagueis has the feats and accolades in abundance to be capable of interrupting Vitiate.

Revan knew what to expect in this confrontation.

Darth Plagueis on the other hand...

Legend (quote function not working):


My argument is that you tend to discredit Vitiate's raw power by attributing his effectiveness to the environment around him.

It certainly played a role, yes. Do you actually have a reason to ignore the nexus beyond your own say-so?

The fact of the matter is that Vitiate had a powerful dark side nexus on his side, and still only defeated Revan when he took several seconds to gather his energy. It's not very convincing when he has to face a combatant with significantly superior speed and close quarters feats, who has himself pulled off feats of the Force Vitiate never has, and has a particular accolade that vaults him above Vitiate - but you dismiss just because you don't like it.


Revan is commonly assumed to be approaching Yoda-level strength as of his Reborn story arc.

Lmfao, based on what? Revan never TK'd droid control ships, nor did he ever match blades with "the most powerful sith lord in history", nor did he casually evade lightsaber strikes from three legendary swordsmen while barely moving in place.

Note that vague aphorisms about being "beyond light and dark" or being one of the most powerful to his time doesn't do anything to explain to us how he's Yoda's level. Can you present us with some substantive analysis beyond that?


Dromund Kaas was somewhat strong in the Dark Side before but not a nexus environment on the whole. Vitiate corrupted its environment further, to the extent that notions of day and night became irrelevant, natural threats intensified (i.e. storms occurred more frequently and flora and fauna became more dangerous) and the entire planet became unusually strong in the Dark Side. More importantly, these shifts were permanent.

You're missing the important point; whether the nexus was created by Vitiate doesn't change the fact that he benefited from said nexus during his fight against Revan. The benefit is important to consider because, though he may be good with sorcery, he's not going to be able to create a nexus in the middle of a fight. Ergo, we cannot just say he's going to be able to do everything he did in the Revan novel.


Therefore, Vitiate's ability to alter an environment dwarfs that of Darth Plagueis in both scale and potency. One reason for Vitiate's superiority in this area is that he is a master of Sith Sorcery and similar arts.

Unbalancing the Force itself over a few months of effort far exceeds being able to generate some lightning storms on a planet over hundreds of years.

It likewise doesn't make sense to downplay Plagueis's effects on Naboo because he didn't impact it for as long; sure, but he didn't stay there as long either. The point is that Plagueis had an immediate impact without even trying or using any overt ritual, whereas Vitiate needed to dabble in esoteric arts for hundreds of years to produce his own effect.


Your assumption that the corruption process of Dromund Kaas spanned centuries, is also misplaced. The time-span of this corruption effort is unknown at the moment but no source implies that it took Vitiate centuries to accomplish it.

I'm pretty sure it was suggested in the Revan novel; regardless, since it's your feat, the lack of clarity is your problem, not mine.


Darth Plagueis also possessed the ability to alter environmental conditions but he could not compete with Vitiate in this area due to lack of expertise in the field of Sith Sorcery. He (temporarily) affected weather conditions in a part of Naboo. You don't think that the entire planet experienced intensified Winter, do you?

It didn't just say part of Naboo.


Moreover, whether Darth Plagueis's inferred manipulation was a product of his mere presence or some degree of effort was involved behind it, is left to the reader's imagination. On the whole, this feat is too ambiguous to quantify.

There would be no motive for him to consciously try to affect its weather patterns. But talk about ambiguity when you just acknowledged that Vitiate's feat doesn't even have a timescale.

Here:

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

While I cannot quantify 'supremely strong' remark in the cross-era context, it certainly makes it clear that Vitiate had extraordinary potential and we cannot rule out the possibility of Vitiate's potential being greater than that of Darth Plagueis.

Nobody's ruling out the possibility; we just find the evidence lacking.


Vitiate did not invite them to his stronghold; he was alert and waited for them to make a move. Moreover, no source implies that he 'prepared' for this confrontation; this is your assumption.

Vitiate is stated to have explored the Dark Side at a greater depth than anybody else, so expect lot of surprises from him. Unless you mistakenly assume that Force lightning is the only offensive option at his disposal. Doesn't makes sense or does it?

You didn't answer the question. If he didn't prep or use any favorable circumstances, why do we never see him use this ability ever again? Either:

a) He's really dumb, or
b) He can't, for some limitation of the power we aren't aware of.

Both possibilities preclude its use against Plagueis.


You can check this blog to learn more about his powers: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forum...thread-1556713/

I am not interested in writing an essay about his abilities.

No, no, I want you to provide arguments for novel Vitiate demonstrating feats or accolades beyond Plagueis, when you adjust for the powerful nexus.


An extraordinary Force-user is expected to take lot of punishment from (conventional) threats before going down. For example, Darth Malgus tanked lot of shit in the battlefield, shit that would utterly disintegrate a normal human. Unless you assume that knives and cutting tools are more lethal than military weapons and Force powers...

A battlefield is a brutal environment, my friend. Why do you think Palpatine felt that Darth Malgus's accomplishments as a warrior are largely unparalleled in history and perceived him as one of his strongest predecessors? One of those reasons is that his defensive abilities were really good.

You might have noticed that Revan also had excellent defensive abilities. This explains his incredible performance in the battlefield and is one of the factors that enabled him to give Vitiate a taste of his own medicine for a while. With the exception of Revan, Vitiate floored any other opponent who dared to cross his path.

You could be really strong in the Force but you would terribly loose in a major confrontation unless you hone your abilities in the defensive applications of the Force. Revan and Darth Malgus understood this fact really well.

You're basically arguing against yourself here, given Vitiate's utter lack of combat experience or adaptation, with his inability to sense the droid until right before, and his likewise inability to prevent himself from being disarmed and almost killed by Meetra's saber throw. He couldn't dodge or deflect his own lightning bolts, something that, say, Dooku did casually against Yoda. He's so used to facing weaklings that when he encountered Revan, all he could do was just try to dominate his mind and then launch some lightning bolts at him.

Vitiate would have a more profound impact on the balance of the Force than any other Force-user (or many combined), due to his extraordinary power and mastery of Sith Sorcery.

This doesn't answer the point at all. The fact of the matter is that Plagueis pulled off a feat in the Force that massively surpasses anything Vitiate, or Valkorion for that matter, has ever accomplished.


You focus too much on semantics (or more importantly substandard writing of an author) instead of logically looking at stuff.

Vitiate's so-called charging effort lasted only an instant because he had to attack Revan before the latter could close the gap and score a hit on him. You make it sound like as if Vitiate had a minute to perform that act.

We know that Revan had time to put his lightsaber away and stretch his arms out. And yes, the author did make it look like a long time, and the fact that the novel was not very well written doesn't allow you to invalidate things about it you personally don't like.


T3-M4 endured a blast of power from Darth Nyriss (and the resultant fall from the stairs) earlier. It was a durable droid.

Oooohhh, he endured a fall from the stairs! Never mind Plagueis, who was atomizing squads of armored soldiers with Force waves while near-death, clearly we have a winner here. 🙄


Lord Scourge - strong enough to challenge the likes of Meetra Surik back then.

On a nexus that strengthened him and hindered Meetra, sure.

Right

Palpatine wasn't ever knocked on his @ss by someone close to him in raw power, like ever. I wonder if Yoda had support in this confrontation...

If you can provide substantive analysis comparing Revan to Yoda, which does not involve pulling up vague quotes about Revan in a vacuum and not bothering to connect them to your thesis at all, go ahead.

But Sidious didn't have a nexus to help him.


erm

I mentioned a reason right below that statement. Are you paying attention?

No, you gave your own opinion - that we can't trust blurbs because they're "marketing". I see no elaboration as to why we should follow that standard.


Right.

If the dark side's most powerful master can capture the ultimate secret, the Sith will never die—and neither will Darth Bane.

From the back cover of Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

That doesn't mean he was the most powerful to have ever lived. When we call Bill Gates the richest man in the world, we don't include every single person to have ever walked it.