Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I know, she creates really bad pr for feminism
It's sad, that she makes the good people that work hard, look bad.
She had a bad experience with a man? Great.
My mother was a narcissist who emotionally abused me for the first twenty years of my life.
When I would take my sister out to the shop, or in to the city (i'm 18 years older than her), I got nothing but dirty looks from WOMEN, like I was some sort of predator.
I was once told by a woman I was semi-involved with that she was pregnant, and that she was going to take me for every penny I had, just to spite me.
I've had partners lie to me and cheat on me.
I could hate women, but I don't, because I know better than to tar them all with one brush.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not saying it is or isn't true that it's because of Feminism that men can afford to be stay at home dads. It could be. My question would be to you, though, is: Is it because Feminist groups campaigned for it? Or is it a byproduct of Feminists wanting more equality in the work place? Honest question.
I believe it goes hand in hand. It is not really easily, or at all, possible to separate the two. Women can only have equality if men are equal as well. And hopefully we can get an equality that is more healthy and permissive for both men and women.
Originally posted by -Pr-
As per the rape thing, I am aware that they did bring in a more vague, and at the same time more inclusive, definition of rape (which might even include envelopment, yay), but what Feminist groups are responsible for that change?
http://www.feminist.org/nomoreexcuses/ this campaign worked to change the definition. By no means do I want to say that feminism is solely responsible for the things I said (for example a lot of my earlier points are also due to a lot of work of gay right's activism).
Originally posted by -Pr-
Your assertion is based on the assertion that Patriarchy exists, though 😛
Sure. But even if you don't believe in patriarchy, surely you must agree that there are systems at work in our society, and you can live a life to support or hinder these systems. To me, MRA is mostly harmful in my view of these systems.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I should clarify though, that I'm talking primarily about western society; America, England, Ireland, Canada etc. Somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Iraq could definitely be likened to Patriarchy with how they're run. Not so in the West, though, imo.
We had this conversation before. Perhaps we have different definitions of patriarchy, tbh, I believe we do. To me the feminist definition (in general terms) of patriarchy as it applies to Western society is true. Most (or really all) of the arguments I heard against my definition of patriarchy have been strawmen that presume things I do not believe (for example, that all men have more power than women, or that women can't do bad things, or that all men are better of than all women). Generally I believe in transectional feminism, and I would not deny that race, class, sexual orientation, can have immense impact on a person's life as well.
I guess to repeat, I think you and I agree on a lot of things, we want injustices against men to be addressed and solved. I just view the MRM as counterproductive to that goal, and you do not.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I believe it goes hand in hand. It is not really easily, or at all, possible to separate the two. Women can only have equality if men are equal as well. And hopefully we can get an equality that is more healthy and permissive for both men and women.http://www.feminist.org/nomoreexcuses/ this campaign worked to change the definition. By no means do I want to say that feminism is solely responsible for the things I said (for example a lot of my earlier points are also due to a lot of work of gay right's activism).
Sure. But even if you don't believe in patriarchy, surely you must agree that there are systems at work in our society, and you can live a life to support or hinder these systems. To me, MRA is mostly harmful in my view of these systems.
We had this conversation before. Perhaps we have different definitions of patriarchy, tbh, I believe we do. To me the feminist definition (in general terms) of patriarchy as it applies to Western society is true. Most (or really all) of the arguments I heard against my definition of patriarchy have been strawmen that presume things I do not believe (for example, that all men have more power than women, or that women can't do bad things, or that all men are better of than all women). Generally I believe in transectional feminism, and I would not deny that race, class, sexual orientation, can have immense impact on a person's life as well.
I guess to repeat, I think you and I agree on a lot of things, we want injustices against men to be addressed and solved. I just view the MRM as counterproductive to that goal, and you do not.
I just don't like the idea that as long as women have issues, men's issues will be secondary. If one group can't work for men as much as they do women (which is fine, and understandable), then a group must exist for men to balance that out.
Awesome link 👆
What do you feel MRA does to help patriarchy, as you see it?
Yeah, we probably have different definitions of patriarchy in our heads. Mine would be the idea that most or all men benefit from society to a greater extent than women do, and women themselves are perpetual victims that need to be treated like children.
You?
Originally posted by -Pr-
I just don't like the idea that as long as women have issues, men's issues will be secondary. If one group can't work for men as much as they do women (which is fine, and understandable), then a group must exist for men to balance that out.
And I agree with that, I just feel like MRA only really work against feminism rather than for men. I'd love to have a group that worked for men though.
Originally posted by -Pr-
What do you feel MRA does to help patriarchy, as you see it?
I see many MRAs uphold traditional gender roles. Calling men they disagree with (or even men in their own group) "manginas" or sissies, sending the clear message that men should not deviate from what society expects of their masculinity. Generally they don't seem to work at all on the definitions of masculinity, which to me is one of the most important aspects of men's liberation. MRA's to me seem fully committed to making it an us (men) vs. them (women), which I hate (I also hate it when some feminist do it, but again, the difference between a boat that has one small hole and one that is more hole than boat).
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, we probably have different definitions of patriarchy in our heads. Mine would be the idea that most or all men benefit from society to a greater extent than women do, and women themselves are perpetual victims that need to be treated like children.You?
To me the patriarchy is a system of society in which genders are separated and given their own expectations, rules and rights, through means of peer pressure, authority figures, media and the law. It is called patriarchy because the ones getting the particular rights to rule and decide are generally men.
To me the patriarchy isn't something say America and similar nations tries to cause unlike some sharia nations, but is an ingrained part of the culture that should be fought (though people misfire in their desire to see change overnight) To me its the society that enforces certain views on the genders where men are supposed to be smart and strong, and women simply pretty and good with the kids. Yes it's changing but you still see girls discouraging from pursuing education in certain fields, and looked down on for being smart or funny compared to young boys.
There are issues with men too, such as people not wanting them to show feelings or actually care about others. But in general it's still expected that the good strong traits are supposed to be in men and weak worthless or less desirable traits in women. This sort of culture around it is what allows these issues of all sorts to happen, for both men and women. And that is something that is so ingrained that it even infests the feminist movement and will take a long time to fully conquer. But it is worth fighting against
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
To me the patriarchy isn't something say America and similar nations tries to cause unlike some sharia nations, but is an ingrained part of the culture that should be fought (though people misfire in their desire to see change overnight) To me its the society that enforces certain views on the genders where men are supposed to be smart and strong, and women simply pretty and good with the kids. Yes it's changing but you still see girls discouraging from pursuing education in certain fields, and looked down on for being smart or funny compared to young boys.There are issues with men too, such as people not wanting them to show feelings or actually care about others. But in general it's still expected that the good strong traits are supposed to be in men and weak worthless or less desirable traits in women. This sort of culture around it is what allows these issues of all sorts to happen, for both men and women. And that is something that is so ingrained that it even infests the feminist movement and will take a long time to fully conquer. But it is worth fighting against
I agree with this extended definition and explanation as well. Completely.
Women and men have equal rights in other things, but women can not work as good as man on job outside of home.
Because woman have to perform home duties and take care of her children, and when she went out for job her children and home life get affected. no one can take better care of children if compared to their mothers.
Sorry for the late reply @ Bardock. My bad, really.
Originally posted by Bardock42
And I agree with that, I just feel like MRA only really work against feminism rather than for men. I'd love to have a group that worked for men though.I see many MRAs uphold traditional gender roles. Calling men they disagree with (or even men in their own group) "manginas" or sissies, sending the clear message that men should not deviate from what society expects of their masculinity. Generally they don't seem to work at all on the definitions of masculinity, which to me is one of the most important aspects of men's liberation. MRA's to me seem fully committed to making it an us (men) vs. them (women), which I hate (I also hate it when some feminist do it, but again, the difference between a boat that has one small hole and one that is more hole than boat).
The problem right there is, you seem to be wanting to differentiate between "real" and "bad" feminists, but you aren't doing the same about MRAs.
😛
Honestly though, the MRM doesn't care about women, nor is it about putting down women. That isn't part of their mandate at all.
MRM is about taking men out of traditional gender roles, and giving men true equality. Feminism, or at least, the groups that seem to speak for Feminism, are the ones trying to keep men in their original gender roles. They're the groups that want to make sure women are always more often than not as the ideal solo parents (when they really aren't). They're the ones who push to make sure men can't sit beside children on planes, or be involved in childcare (when there are several studies that say child abuse is actually conducted as much, if not more by, women). They're the ones that want to remove funding for male victims of domestic violence, their argument being that it takes funding away from female shelters.
And they ignore that the figure for men being domestically abused is as high as ONE IN SIX.
You can tell me that most feminists are good people. That they genuinely want true equality. I'd even agree with you. The problem is that they aren't the ones representing feminism in places where feminism has actual power. So I have zero trust in their willingness to do anything to help men, considering how much they do to hurt them.
I can't speak for Germany or America (as regards Jalek etc), but in Ireland, it is FAR more socially acceptable for a woman to break out of her traditional gender role than it is for a man. To an extreme that is actually quite scary.
To me the patriarchy is a system of society in which genders are separated and given their own expectations, rules and rights, through means of peer pressure, authority figures, media and the law. It is called patriarchy because the ones getting the particular rights to rule and decide are generally men.
and yet women continue to benefit to an extent men aren't allowed. there are more programs to get women in to colleges and jobs even though they currently outnumber men in getting degrees in many areas. women get grants and subsidies from the government far more easily. courts, both divorce and criminal, are far more lenient towards women than men.
like I said, I can't speak for Germany and America. Here though? Even as bad as Ireland has been with the recent abortion law fiasco, the country is still more likely to actively look after the woman down the street than it is me.
Any place where a woman is being discriminated against, needs to be fixed.
But men are people too, and we suffer too. Even more than women in some cases, yet we're treated like we can't be victims.
a drunk woman can't give consent, but a man can. a man can be beaten to death merely for being accused of rape or paedophilia, but a woman is "sick, and needs help". A man, in America, has to sign up for selective service before having rights that women can get without signing up for them.
a man can't sit on a plane beside an unattended child, but a woman can.
a man is far more likely to be attacked walking alone at night.
==
I realise I've ranted, so im going to break it down.
Men and Women are both capable of being victims. They both deserve care and respect when they are made victims. At the same time though, they need to be held accountable for their actions. Women are not special little snowflakes that need protection from society. A grown woman is as much an adult as a man is; hell, at times they're treated like their word carries more weight.
Yet any attempt to make a woman feel responsible for her actions is met with "victim blaming" accusations.
I'm just tired of it. We're all people, and we should all be given the same benefit of the doubt. There are places where women are not. There are places were men are not. Honestly, it just feels like people only care about these things when they affect women.
And the courts in most countries STILL consider envelopment not to be rape.
Seems I've ranted again. My bad.
In terms of law and such yes I fully agree the issues regarding men and children need to be seriously addressed, and I had no idea it was that bad where you live.
In america though in regards to things like rape it still really isn't taken seriously despite us having a pretty hate rate of it happening. Especially among young people where bringing it up will have your reputation as a woman dragged through the mud and lot of places will flat out blame you and sometimes even other women saying you shouldn't have hung out around the men. This is a real problem where people can laugh it off and say you asked for it for being around them, or walking at night despite the fact that you have to get to work somehow. And the perception that having sex at all is bad for a women but its equally bad to not submit to your boyfriend
On the same hand socities issue with men not acting like " men" only helps add to this, where no one wants to actually talk to them about what they do and how they feel. And you are pretty forced forced and expected to be all women are nothing but sex for your young life otherwise you're a *****. Where date rape is "boys will be boys" and only leads to the problems in law towards men.
A lot stems from both womens groups and mens group fighting each other and pushing harder and harder. Which is when we get dumb shit like the serious anti men ideas some spout and the hateful venom towards any male who happens to be pro women in anyway even on sites such as this from other men.
there are issues towards men and especially in regards to children I will always fight for real equality in that area, especially as I have seen it first hand out women can game the system to get their husbands in trouble and banned from seeing their kids.
But the fact that men do have issues, doesn't give men the right to be hateful towards women and the issues that they still do face especially in societies perception of them. Just as it doesn't give feminist groups the right to try to push anti male laws. The sort of talk that goes on would be unacceptable if towards a different race. why is it ok for gender?
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
In terms of law and such yes I fully agree the issues regarding men and children need to be seriously addressed, and I had no idea it was that bad where you live.In america though in regards to things like rape it still really isn't taken seriously despite us having a pretty hate rate of it happening. Especially among young people where bringing it up will have your reputation as a woman dragged through the mud and lot of places will flat out blame you and sometimes even other women saying you shouldn't have hung out around the men. This is a real problem where people can laugh it off and say you asked for it for being around them, or walking at night despite the fact that you have to get to work somehow. And the perception that having sex at all is bad for a women but its equally bad to not submit to your boyfriend
On the same hand socities issue with men not acting like " men" only helps add to this, where no one wants to actually talk to them about what they do and how they feel. And you are pretty forced forced and expected to be all women are nothing but sex for your young life otherwise you're a *****. Where date rape is "boys will be boys" and only leads to the problems in law towards men.
A lot stems from both womens groups and mens group fighting each other and pushing harder and harder. Which is when we get dumb shit like the serious anti men ideas some spout and the hateful venom towards any male who happens to be pro women in anyway even on sites such as this from other men.
there are issues towards men and especially in regards to children I will always fight for real equality in that area, especially as I have seen it first hand out women can game the system to get their husbands in trouble and banned from seeing their kids.
But the fact that men do have issues, doesn't give men the right to be hateful towards women and the issues that they still do face especially in societies perception of them. Just as it doesn't give feminist groups the right to try to push anti male laws. The sort of talk that goes on would be unacceptable if towards a different race. why is it ok for gender?
That's horrible, man. Really. And you are right; this whole "us v them" mentality doesn't help anyone. If we don't work together, shit will only get worse.
Didn't know that either, but it seems the rules are changing for the airlines that implement those descrimatory practices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy
While slightly more women abuse children in the US (it is close to 50-50 though), women abuse children through neglect or Münchhausen Syndrome. Men are overwhelmingly more often perpetrators of sexual abuse (about 9 times more likely) and physical abuse (about twice as likely).
As such, since an unattended child on a plane is unlikely to be abused through neglect nor Münchhausen Syndrome by their seat neighbor....you know...
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
And the perception that having sex at all is bad for a women but its equally bad to not submit to your boyfriend
I would argue that this particular point does not apply to America. The extreme majority of both men and women in America would disagree that a woman should sexually submit to her boyfriend/male SO and disregard her own will on this matter.
That may have been true even 60 years ago, but it is definitely not applicable to contemporary America.
Also, I am noticing something about the millennials and younger: it is no longer acceptable to tell men that they should man up and not have all of these "feelings." All of the men who I count as friends, in my life, who are younger than around 35ish would berate me or my peers if we said something stupid like that (that a man should "man-up" and stop being a baby). But on the same point, my 40+ friends would be more likely to say "man-up", so the idea is still there.
I caught myself telling my son, "You're a boy, you should think about your problem and come up with a logical solution instead of crying about it." I realized I was wrong for saying that. So, the next time I got a chance to address that with my son, I said, "It is okay to be upset about something. If you need to cry, cry. But try to come up with a solution, too." It is now much easier to address things like that with my daughter. She's a looooot more whiny than my son. My wife even fueled some of that flame when I was tell my daughter to try to come up with a solution and not just cry about the situation. My wife said, "But she's a little girl! She's allowed to just cry about things." I explained that we may be teaching our daughter to become an entitled girl that thinks men owe her everything. I'm all about empowering women to be self-sufficient and not believing that they have to rely on men for everything. If we teach her it is okay to cry and everyone will fix her problems, we may be emotionally and functionally crippling her when she reaches her teens and early adulthood.
So far, my son seems to be the more self-sufficient one of my children. My daughter, not so much. I mean...damn...she is so much whinier than my son. lol I am trying my best to teach her to try to resolve her problems/conflict with a logical approach rather than just crying about them.
Originally posted by Bardock42
And who pays for the extra seat? Do unattended children pay for two seats? Does the airline just comp it out of the kindness of its heart? Does everyone else pay a little more?
The airline eats it up the cost since it's they who are putting such silly practices into place.
Or you know, they could do away with the "no men" discrimination all together which has a doubling effect of not making them look like bigoted idiots and maximizing profits all at the same time.