Honestly I think the guys defending feminism should be better off being just egalitarians, there is no need to take the female flag to defend the rights of men, you can do that perfectly by assuming a neutral ideology instead of one that focus mainly on women.
Unless this decision of being a feminist comes from the indoctrination that women need to be protected (chivalry)
That is my honest opinion anyway
Originally posted by dadudemon
I would note that this video on the military stuff could be viewed as a feminist video because feminists (the majority of them...not necessarily the most vocal of them) support egalitarianism.So complaining about the lopsidedness of war, as it relates to gender, is also a feminist issue.
Some men don't want to acknowledge that the shitty treatment of men is ALSO a feminist issue.
Well too bad this video was not made by a feminist group.
The only thing I saw being made by a feminist group was that memorial for the WOMEN working on the factories of WW2 which conveniently forgot about the OLD MEN who also contributed to the war effort.
There is that.
correction
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Well too bad this video was not made by a feminist group.The only thing I saw being made by a feminist ideolgy was that memorial for the WOMEN working on the factories of WW2 which conveniently forgot about the OLD MEN who also contributed to the war effort.
There is that.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Honestly I think the guys defending feminism should be better off being just egalitarians, there is no need to take the female flag to defend the rights of men, you can do that perfectly by assuming a neutral ideology instead of one that focus mainly on women.
I disagree, I view feminism as the best tool in fighting the system that dictates social gender differences (which in feminism is called patriarchy, and I personally find a fitting term).
I have no problem with additionally adopting some "egailitarian" label, that movement just hasn't achieve anything and really has no history of thought behind it, egalitarianism is good, imo, in so far as it agrees with feminist thought. By itself it seems a completely hollow movement to me.
And I have no desire to abandon the movement that actually has helped bring us to where we are on the next steps, due to some different approaches within the group (especially since the new movement would not be somehow magically save from extremism, rather it is more likely to be dominated by it because of the lack of history and comparative size (which is why I think MRA is a terrible movement))
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Honestly I think the guys defending feminism should be better off being just egalitarians...
I agree. I think the majority of feminists who are reasonable and base their opinions on facts and not hyperbole, should relabel themselves.
I think a majority of feminists should call themselves Egalitarians to distance themselves from the shittier portions of the Feminist Movement.
Also, I disagree with you, Bardock. I think the MRM (Men's Rights Movement) is necessarily due to the all the social injustices that are NOT being adequately addressed by the feminist community. Both my brother and my best friend experienced "the system", which heavily favors women, in their divorces. It was hilarious how shitty the system was as far as equality goes. Let us take my brother's ex-wife: she physically abused him. He had pictures, police report (but they didn't haul her ass off to jail when he called the cops on her for her abuse...interesting, huh?) of the abuse. He has to pay child support AND they have joint custody. Now how the **** is a judge going to give a woman ANY custody over a child when they are provably violent? I would say the best case scenario for the mother, IF the system was fair, would be for her to get weekly (once a week) supervised visitation rights. And she should have to pay child-support. Swap the genders in my brother's situation where he abused the woman and got the cops called on him. Not only would he have gone to jail, he would probably not get any custody over the child. 😐
When need MRM lobbyists to help correct parts of the system that are not getting adequately addressed by the Feminist Movement.
From my POV, the MRAs do not address the social insjustices that are overlooked, imo the majority that falls under that label are nothing more than a hate group against women (like the southern poverty law center states), that actually further the social injustice men face, and doesn't address anything adequately. The way I see it the arguments you and other people make about feminism actually apply to MRAs, the movement is beyond saving to me and should be abandoned. I don't see as feminism as two sides of the same coin, I think feminism is a great social movement with the majority being good people that have in the past, and continue to do, good for society, while MRAs (or MRM if you like to use that term), is the opposite, having perhaps a few good people that associate itself with it, while the majority are hateful, misogynist assholes that have no interest in liberating men whatsoever and just want women and feminists to not talk about issues anymore.
I personally feel much more spiritually connected to the men's liberation movement, which is actually a pro-feminist movement, alas there's little support for it. The popularity of MRA is very troubling to me as I feel the majority of the movement actually harms men rather than addressing any injustices, and acts against an actual men's movement that addresses men's issues to spring up.
This is kind of sad, although the only one who tried to do anything was a woman, but in contrast You guys should check out the first part of this video, in which the women is the one who is getting abused and see how many women and men come to her rescue.
Originally posted by Bardock42
From my POV, the MRAs do not address the social insjustices that are overlooked, imo the majority that falls under that label are nothing more than a hate group against women (like the southern poverty law center states), that actually further the social injustice men face, and doesn't address anything adequately. The way I see it the arguments you and other people make about feminism actually apply to MRAs, the movement is beyond saving to me and should be abandoned. I don't see as feminism as two sides of the same coin, I think feminism is a great social movement with the majority being good people that have in the past, and continue to do, good for society, while MRAs (or MRM if you like to use that term), is the opposite, having perhaps a few good people that associate itself with it, while the majority are hateful, misogynist assholes that have no interest in liberating men whatsoever and just want women and feminists to not talk about issues anymore.I personally feel much more spiritually connected to the men's liberation movement, which is actually a pro-feminist movement, alas there's little support for it. The popularity of MRA is very troubling to me as I feel the majority of the movement actually harms men rather than addressing any injustices, and acts against an actual men's movement that addresses men's issues to spring up.
There is/was a MRA group that does a podcast where they argue with feminists. They routinely utterly destroy the feminists in any of their discussions. They are a hate group, however. So while they may be right in most of their arguments (and they may win most of them), all of that amounts to nothing because of the hate they spew.
So, yeah, I know what you mean. I think there are more hateful-stupid feminists than there are men in the entire MRM. That's how prolific the idiocy, I believe, is in the Feminist Movement which is why I think it should be abandoned by the majority.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
YouTube videoThis is kind of sad, although the only one who tried to do anything was a woman, but in contrast You guys should check out the first part of this video, in which the women is the one who is getting abused and see how many women and men come to her rescue.
You are definitely correct that abuse of men is an issue that needs to get more visibility. Patriarchal stereotypes of men (being strong, invulnerable, etc.) work to ridicule and cover the abuse that men face and it is a real injustice that needs to be addressed.
Originally posted by Bardock42
From my POV, the MRAs do not address the social insjustices that are overlooked, imo the majority that falls under that label are nothing more than a hate group against women (like the southern poverty law center states), that actually further the social injustice men face, and doesn't address anything adequately. The way I see it the arguments you and other people make about feminism actually apply to MRAs, the movement is beyond saving to me and should be abandoned. I don't see as feminism as two sides of the same coin, I think feminism is a great social movement with the majority being good people that have in the past, and continue to do, good for society, while MRAs (or MRM if you like to use that term), is the opposite, having perhaps a few good people that associate itself with it, while the majority are hateful, misogynist assholes that have no interest in liberating men whatsoever and just want women and feminists to not talk about issues anymore.I personally feel much more spiritually connected to the men's liberation movement, which is actually a pro-feminist movement, alas there's little support for it. The popularity of MRA is very troubling to me as I feel the majority of the movement actually harms men rather than addressing any injustices, and acts against an actual men's movement that addresses men's issues to spring up.
The SPLC is a parody of its former self, and has gotten to the point where even the FBI won't work with them. Anything they print is more valuable as toilet paper than actual evidence or proof, imo.
MRA in general is no more a "hate women" group, than Feminism is a "hate men" group. Both sides just have very vocal minorities.
It's this misconception about the MRA as a whole that deeply troubles me. People talk about how they're misogynistic, or how they're anti-women. They, as a group, are not.
Wanting fairer sentences is not sexist. Wanting to be able to see your kids, is not sexist. Wanting men and women to have equal position in society, is not sexist. Wanting men to feel empowered to stand up for themselves, and be themselves, while dispelling the notion that they are just disposable drones, is not sexist.
If we disagree on the subject, that's fine.
I just want to know who looks after Men's interests then, if not the MRA. And if you're going to say Feminism, then tell me how. Tell me what they do that gives the rightful attention to the issues for men that exist right now, in this day and age.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree. I think the majority of feminists who are reasonable and base their opinions on facts and not hyperbole, should relabel themselves.I think a majority of feminists should call themselves Egalitarians to distance themselves from the shittier portions of the Feminist Movement.
Also, I disagree with you, Bardock. I think the MRM (Men's Rights Movement) is necessarily due to the all the social injustices that are NOT being adequately addressed by the feminist community. Both my brother and my best friend experienced "the system", which heavily favors women, in their divorces. It was hilarious how shitty the system was as far as equality goes. Let us take my brother's ex-wife: she physically abused him. He had pictures, police report (but they didn't haul her ass off to jail when he called the cops on her for her abuse...interesting, huh?) of the abuse. He has to pay child support AND they have joint custody. Now how the **** is a judge going to give a woman ANY custody over a child when they are provably violent? I would say the best case scenario for the mother, IF the system was fair, would be for her to get weekly (once a week) supervised visitation rights. And she should have to pay child-support. Swap the genders in my brother's situation where he abused the woman and got the cops called on him. Not only would he have gone to jail, he would probably not get any custody over the child. 😐
When need MRM lobbyists to help correct parts of the system that are not getting adequately addressed by the Feminist Movement.
Agreed.
I agree with you that men's issues need champions, and are in our society almost never discussed. I also don't think feminism will holistically be the movement that look after men's interests. I just believe that feminism has done more and will do more for men's interests than MRA ever will. What we need, and I hope will exist at some point, is a pro-feminist men's movement, I just don't think MRM/MRA can be it due to its very strong anti-feminist stance. and preoccupation with upholding patriarchal masculinity.
There's a common tendency to label disdain for certain changes brought about by Feminism as well as parts of Feminist doctrine as 'misogyny', which I think is wrong. It does nothing to actually discuss the issues being raised, it's a dismissal.
"Feminism has resulted in lower standards for Fire Fighters, people who need to save lives and be in peak physical condition."
"You're just a misogynist"
Whether or not someone is misogynist is a secondary point and does nothing to determine whether what they're saying has merit, and in most cases the person is not a misogynist.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I agree with you that men's issues need champions, and are in our society almost never discussed. I also don't think feminism will holistically be the movement that look after men's interests. I just believe that feminism has done more and will do more for men's interests than MRA ever will. What we need, and I hope will exist at some point, is a pro-feminist men's movement, I just don't think MRM/MRA can be it due to its very strong anti-feminist stance. and preoccupation with upholding patriarchal masculinity.
I agree with a lot of what you said, so apologies if any post I write comes across as any way hostile.
Two things, though:
What do you think/know that Feminism has done for Men? What do you think they will do that will eclipse anything MRAs can accomplish?
I am curious, why you say that they want to uphold "patriarchal masculinity", when a very large number of MRAs don't even subscribe to the idea of patriarchy in the first place.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I agree with a lot of what you said, so apologies if any post I write comes across as any way hostile.Two things, though:
What do you think/know that Feminism has done for Men? What do you think they will do that will eclipse anything MRAs can accomplish?
I am curious, why you say that they want to uphold "patriarchal masculinity", when a very large number of MRAs don't even subscribe to the idea of patriarchy in the first place.
I believe feminism has really gotten us to the place that it is now somewhat acceptable for men to show feelings, to not fit into the stereotypes that patriarchy puts on them. It has worked to allow fathers to be stay-at home dads, and to have open emotional relationships with their children and partners. It has given men, like me, the tools to understand our and work against the injustices society perpetrate against men. In a more practical sense feminists have worked to extend the FBI definition of rape to include male victims. You can also check out this blog post, it's pretty good: http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/08/why-men-need-feminism-3/
Regarding not subrscribing to the idea of patriarchy, almost everyone that perpetrates and upholds patriarchy does not accept the concept to exist. It is feminists that point out the system, while the people furthering the system (both women and men) do not acknowledge it to exist. Saying "I don't believe in patriarchy" does not make the patriarchy disappear, nor does it preclude you from using it's oppressive tools against men and women.
This is disgusting
This one was a little bit better, isn't that bullying? wonder what will happen if I talk to a woman like that in public?
I think I should stop posting videos, I don't want to come across as hostile either.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I believe feminism has really gotten us to the place that it is now somewhat acceptable for men to show feelings, to not fit into the stereotypes that patriarchy puts on them. It has worked to allow fathers to be stay-at home dads, and to have open emotional relationships with their children and partners. It has given men, like me, the tools to understand our and work against the injustices society perpetrate against men. In a more practical sense feminists have worked to extend the FBI definition of rape to include male victims. You can also check out this blog post, it's pretty good: http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/08/why-men-need-feminism-3/Regarding not subrscribing to the idea of patriarchy, almost everyone that perpetrates and upholds patriarchy does not accept the concept to exist. It is feminists that point out the system, while the people furthering the system (both women and men) do not acknowledge it to exist. Saying "I don't believe in patriarchy" does not make the patriarchy disappear, nor does it preclude you from using it's oppressive tools against men and women.
I'm not saying it is or isn't true that it's because of Feminism that men can afford to be stay at home dads. It could be. My question would be to you, though, is: Is it because Feminist groups campaigned for it? Or is it a byproduct of Feminists wanting more equality in the work place? Honest question.
As per the rape thing, I am aware that they did bring in a more vague, and at the same time more inclusive, definition of rape (which might even include envelopment, yay), but what Feminist groups are responsible for that change?
Thanks, I'll give it a look. Okay, I gave it a look, and as nice as it is, it doesn't really tell me anything I didn't know already, or rather, that I hadn't heard before. I don't necessarily agree with it all either.
Your assertion is based on the assertion that Patriarchy exists, though 😛
I should clarify though, that I'm talking primarily about western society; America, England, Ireland, Canada etc. Somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Iraq could definitely be likened to Patriarchy with how they're run. Not so in the West, though, imo.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
This is disgustingThis one was a little bit better, isn't that bullying? wonder what will happen if I talk to a woman like that in public?
I think I should stop posting videos, I don't want to come across as hostile either.
that woman with the red hair is famous for her rants at this point. Kinda sad.