Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. It says he's grown in knowledge which makes sense since he's been hiding out on a Sith temple. And you heavily implied he'd become more powerful as of Rebels since you're saying he's apparently Dooku level now which he certainly wasn't before ( that was either here or the other thread ).
Tell me how he's grown in knowledge but declined overall.
And don't speculate. I want facts.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
2. Based on the fact that not utilizing an ability will cause it to decline and getting older causes most physical bodies to grow weaker... This is common sense bud.And still not something that's going to hone his skills with a lightsaber or increase his power with the Force.
And yet Maul's history in Canon completely disagrees with you. Look up his revival in TCW.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
3. And yet he has no way to carry out this revenge and hasn't for decades. He's just been waiting for someone to come along that he could manipulate into getting a superweapon that might have given him a chance at doing so and now even that's gone
The fact that he was trying to activate that super weapon means he's still actively out for revenge. So your points fail again.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And now that purpose is gone. The superweapon that might have given a chance at allowing him to defeat his master imploded itself. Now his only motivation is taking Ezra as a Sith apprentice and the holocron for himself. I don't believe even you think Maul's so delusional that he'd believe those things would allow him to be capable of defeating the Emperor.... The fact that Order 66 was carried out and nearly all Jedi were killed? I don't know if you've noticed but new canon is pretty lacking in actual living Jedi. Even if Maul does think Kenobi survived he's likely somewhat contented knowing he'll be being hunted down for the rest of his life same as him even if he would want to kill him himself. What you call assumption I call pretty reasoned out conclusions that come from common sense.
Well it's one thing at a time. Maul states himself he can't take Vader alone. But he sees potential in Ezra, so looks like he's thinking if he can train Ezra then the 2 of them could challenge Vader.
If he succeeds in that then he can focus on Palpatine next.
Besides he's looking for other ways. Like the Sith Holocron.
So let's backtrack:
He has more rage than ever- Check
He still has purpose and focus - Check
He's grown in Knowledge - Check
He's built a new Saber, implying he's kept up his Saber skills - Check.
So exactly what are you basing his decline on? Nothing is the answer.
You're speculating about his lack of knowledge on Kenobi. Maul's rage and focus is simply focused more on the Sith at this time.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
4. Waiting for an indeterminate amount of time to manipulate somebody into helping him access a super weapon. He's not actively building a power base, training apprentices or combating his foes because he knows he's not powerful enough to do so.Sure he was. But he's been waiting decades to do so. His drive is hardly going to be the rage and vengeance fueled passion he had in TCW.
How is his sense of purpose as great as ever when now he doesn't even have a superweapon to potentially combat his master? Do you honestly think he's so delusional that he thinks with Ezra's help he could beat his master? :/
I'm not saying older Force user's can't be powerful. I'm saying there's nothing to indicate Maul's even grown in power.
You'd be wrong as I just explained above though you'll probably inevitably fail to grasp it.
He was patient because he knows he's no match for Vader and the Emperor without a weapon or new apprentice.
No his Rage is greater than ever before. Before his Rage was just due to him not fullfilling his destiny. Now even that rage has partially transferred to Sidious (for abandoning him) as well as the mega rage of seeing his brother and mother killed.
The facts suggest it's highly unlikely he's declined at least. Obviously growth he needs to show proof of. His growth in power is something we've simply been speculating on. But we KNOW he's grown in knowledge, and kept up his Saber skill, so that's not a far out assumption.
As far as Canon history goes I'm right based on Maul's canonical history.
Now sure Rebels might completely contradict that, but until it does the Facts and Canonical history of the character are on my side. Whereas your whole argument seems to be biased speculation, in the direction you would prefer it to go.
You're not using any facts at all. So until Rebels says otherwise, I'm right.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaI'm aware of what you're saying, but you're overestimating the extent to which Maul's powers increased. A side by side comparison of Force feats shows his increment in power is not that large and early-TCW Maul is barely capable of using the Force to retrieve his lightsaber.
I'm saying that it's Maul's increased power that allows him to make up for his atrophied skill. TCW Maul who had just recently regained his memories vs Prime TPM Maul is a fight I think could go either way.
The fact that despite these circumstances he's capable of rapidly overwhelming Kenobi in Revenge and going on to be a far more formidable warrior than before suggests that any atrophying in skill would have been minuscule if not non-existent. If anything he skills have improved.
Why would it be tenuous? He's taking part in lightsaber fights and redeveloping his style but that doesn't mean all memory of the techniques and forms and styles he learned are going to come flooding back to him.And yet that's exactly how muscle memory works, and exactly what happened to Maul in Revenge. Normal humans are capable of going without years of ever having driven a car, ridden a bike or swam in a pool, only to have it yes, come flooding back to them once they pick it up again. The brain is capable of retaining this shit, namely motor skills, subconsciously, for indefinite periods of time, and we can be sure that this was the case for Maul's lightsaber skills considering they have been drilled into him since he was a child in a training regime that surpasses that of most Sith in mythos. There is no basis for Maul simply forgetting his techniques entirely.
"Drawing real world parallels to individuals of superhuman ability as counter-evidence being illogical for obvious reasons." - Beni EatsHisWords Boi, 2016.Right, I don't think I need to explain to you why Lebron James should not be considered equatable to Darth ****ing Maul, or maybe I do?
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaI wasn't suggesting that, I was actually basing my opinions off of something called evidence.
I'm referring to your suggestion that Palpatine did not set minions to hunt for Maul simply because it didn't show him actively doing it.
At the end of SoD Sidious has seemingly no interest in pursuing Maul, instead believing that with the events that have transpired, he has no future:
After which he makes no attempt to eliminate Maul once he reappears on Mandalore, and instead it is the Jedi who pursue him. Fast forward almost two decades later and Maul is described as a "shadow" (which only reinforces Palpatine's current impression of him) and his continued survival mere rumour. A rumour that it would appear is only confirmed once the Inquisitor's discover him on Malachor, "So, the rumors are true; Darth Maul lives", therefore we must assume that Maul all but eluded the Empire's notice until now, or at least for a very long time. It not even being Vader that Sidious dispatches to investigate Maul's reappearance, but a single Inquisitor, and not even his best, clearly Palpy hardly gives af. Certainly there is no evidence he's been pouring 17, 18 years of resources into hunting him down.
Going to need the quote that confirms this claim.How about a game of spot the difference. It's the very same, you even see a Mandalorian fighter in the hangar. And if you watch the entire clip you'll notice Maul has a change of clothes, and cute little minion droids, he's living it up friend.
Going to need the quote that confirms this claim.
--Twilight of the Apprentice, concept art gallery (http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/star-wars-rebels/twilight-of-the-apprentice-concept-art-gallery)
Btw:
http://www.starwars.com/news/ranking-rebels-10-highlights-from-twilight-of-the-apprentice
10. Old Master v. Maul (a.k.a. Sam Witwer is my Master now).
There’s not a single moment here, but a progression of moments that honestly blew me away. When we first meet him, this “Old Master” is frail, hesitant, even fearful. As the story continues, you see those traits melt away, but there’s a flow to it. The more Ezra trusts, the more Maul becomes himself until, finally, he’s at full strength and more powerful than ever.
Emphasis Mine.
Not an "official" quote I know, but it seems to be where they're going with it.
Originally posted by Darth ThorWho says he didn't have muscle memory. Quit misrepresenting another argument to sell your laughable one.
Anyone who thinks Maul wouldn't have muscle memory clearly knows nothing about Maul. And are ignoring TCW Canon.I've also not seen 1 bit of proof that he didn't keep up his dueling skill. Only biased speculation.
He was crazed for years with spider legs. Do you think he practiced in that state of mind ?? Evidence please. Common sense is against you once again.
Originally posted by Darth ThorAnother interview where he makes a hyperbolic statement you want to enter as evidence while dismissing other interviews showing a clear bias. Game. Set. Match.
Btw:http://www.starwars.com/news/ranking-rebels-10-highlights-from-twilight-of-the-apprentice
10. Old Master v. Maul (a.k.a. Sam Witwer is my Master now).
There’s not a single moment here, but a progression of moments that honestly blew me away. When we first meet him, this “Old Master” is frail, hesitant, even fearful. As the story continues, you see those traits melt away, but there’s a flow to it. The more Ezra trusts, the more Maul becomes himself until, finally, he’s at full strength and more powerful than ever.
Emphasis Mine.
Not an "official" quote I know, but it seems to be where they're going with it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm aware of what you're saying, but you're overestimating the extent to which Maul's powers increased. A side by side comparison of Force feats shows his increment in power is not that large and early-TCW Maul is barely capable of using the Force to retrieve his lightsaber.The fact that despite these circumstances he's capable of rapidly overwhelming Kenobi in Revenge and going on to be a far more formidable warrior than before suggests that any atrophying in skill would have been minuscule if not non-existent. If anything he skills have improved.And yet that's exactly how muscle memory works, and exactly what happened to Maul in Revenge. Normal humans are capable of going without years of ever having driven a car, ridden a bike or swam in a pool, only to have it yes, come flooding back to them once they pick it up again. The brain is capable of retaining this shit, namely motor skills, subconsciously, for indefinite periods of time, and we can be sure that this was the case for Maul's lightsaber skills considering they have been drilled into him since he was a child in a training regime that surpasses that of most Sith in mythos. There is no basis for Maul simply forgetting his techniques entirely.Right, I don't think I need to explain to you why Lebron James should not be considered equatable to Darth ****ing Maul, or maybe I do?I wasn't suggesting that, I was actually basing my opinions off of something called evidence.
At the end of SoD Sidious has seemingly no interest in pursuing Maul, instead believing that with the events that have transpired, he has no future:
After which he makes no attempt to eliminate Maul once he reappears on Mandalore, and instead it is the Jedi who pursue him. Fast forward almost two decades later and Maul is described as a "shadow" (which only reinforces Palpatine's current impression of him) and his continued survival mere rumour. A rumour that it would appear is only confirmed once the Inquisitor's discover him on Malachor, "So, the rumors are true; Darth Maul lives", therefore we must assume that Maul all but eluded the Empire's notice until now, or at least for a very long time. It not even being Vader that Sidious dispatches to investigate Maul's reappearance, but a single Inquisitor, and not even his best, clearly Palpy hardly gives af. Certainly there is no evidence he's been pouring 17, 18 years of resources into hunting him down.How about a game of spot the difference. It's the very same, you even see a Mandalorian fighter in the hangar. And if you watch the entire clip you'll notice Maul has a change of clothes, and cute little minion droids, he's living it up friend.
--Twilight of the Apprentice, concept art gallery (http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/star-wars-rebels/twilight-of-the-apprentice-concept-art-gallery)
1. Dude... He threw back an army of clones with his brother and collapsed a Republic outpost. He's substantially more powerful then his TPM self in power. If you could give me a direct comparison though on why you hold your stance I'd appreciate it.
You understand that Kenobi was physically beaten by Maul beforehand and that the fight was relatively even until Maul unbalanced him correct?
2. I didn't say he'd forget them entirely. I'm saying that he'd have trouble implementing them in combat after not using them for years. Especially when he's not using his saberstaff like he normally does meaning he's going to have to adjust his style even more not only to accommodate his ability to employ moves he hasn't used for years but also employing the best moves for single bladed combat.
3. You're going to need to explain to me why the difference would be large enough in their cognitive capabilities that Maul wouldn't be pretty damn hindered in regards to his technical skill after not using them for decades.
4. He's saying that Maul has no future left which is absolutely true. All his allies are dead. His mother is dead. His brother/apprentice is dead. He has nothing. It doesn't mean Palpatine wouldn't set people to hunt him down. If he's ordering the death of a completely loyal minion who's growing in power like Ventress then he's certainly going to be hunting down a rogue Force user like Maul around that level.
Also we know Maul has had encounters with Inquisitors before because he said "They're formidable." If the Inquisitor who made that comment didn't know about Maul that's showing his ignorance but not Palpatine or Vader's.
5. Just because they look the same doesn't mean they are. Have you ever heard of the concept called "uniformity?"
The CIS/Republic is going to pump out space stations with the same design because it's cheaper to mass produce parts for a single uniform model rather then making a unique space station ever single time. Until we get confirmation I can't agree with your assumption.
6. Fair enough.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaYeah not really. Being capable of collapsing a barracks with a Force scream at age 15, and by TPM effortlessly lifting a boulder without so much as looking at it and shielding himself from an explosion that vaporised Anoon Boondara all compare. And then we have holistic abilities like surviving bisection - a feat even Sidious did not believe possible - and leaving a dark side presence on Naboo felt by Leia over thirty years later. He is a powerhouse, undoubtedly, and there is little TCW Maul has accomplished that he could not provably replicate.
1. Dude... He threw back an army of clones with his brother and collapsed a Republic outpost. He's substantially more powerful then his TPM self in power. If you could give me a direct comparison though on why you hold your stance I'd appreciate it.
You understand that Kenobi was physically beaten by Maul beforehand and that the fight was relatively even until Maul unbalanced him correct?Physically beaten yes, but he's recovered from worse, whereas Maul on top of the aforementioned circumstances was also unfamiliar on his legs. I'm not arguing it was a fair fight, obviously, but there were disadvantages on both sides.
2. I didn't say he'd forget them entirely. I'm saying that he'd have trouble implementing them in combat after not using them for years. Especially when he's not using his saberstaff like he normally does meaning he's going to have to adjust his style even more not only to accommodate his ability to employ moves he hasn't used for years but also employing the best moves for single bladed combat.And I'm saying that with sufficient practice he could have restored his talents. Of which Maul had plenty, many more Jedi opponents than he ever faced as an apprentice and on top of that was training Savage.
As for Maul being unpracticed with a single blade? Hardly. The fact that he was able to drive Qui-Gon back on Naboo with a single bladed style proves that he was just as practiced with it as he was the saberstaff, the latter being the infinitely more difficult weapon to wield. Again he's one of the best trained Sith in history, he has no such shortcomings.
3. You're going to need to explain to me why the difference would be large enough in their cognitive capabilities that Maul wouldn't be pretty damn hindered in regards to his technical skill after not using them for decades.It's got little to do with cognitive capabilities, although an argument can be made that a Force sensitive is naturally superior in this field, its a simple matter of training. You can't compare that of a basketball player to one of the most efficiently trained Sith in history, lmao.
4. He's saying that Maul has no future left which is absolutely true. All his allies are dead. His mother is dead. His brother/apprentice is dead. He has nothing. It doesn't mean Palpatine wouldn't set people to hunt him down. If he's ordering the death of a completely loyal minion who's growing in power like Ventress then he's certainly going to be hunting down a rogue Force user like Maul around that level.And yet, it does. Because Maul had been neutralised as a threat, hence there is no need to pursue any further action. That is why Sidious does not care that Maul got away, because he has no further interest in capturing him, that is why despite foreseeing that this would occur, Sidious makes no attempt to stop it from happening. It couldn't be anymore ****ing obvious lmao, he doesn't give a damn.
And Sidious saw Ventress as a threat because of her alliance with Dooku, once that was broken of course she was no longer a threat. And despite Dooku failing to eliminate her, Sidious did not pursue matters further did he? Nor did he send anyone after Maul once he reappeared on Mandalore, yeah.
Also we know Maul has had encounters with Inquisitors before because he said "They're formidable." If the Inquisitor who made that comment didn't know about Maul that's showing his ignorance but not Palpatine or Vader's.That could be read in a number of different ways, from Maul studying their exploits from a far to killing one without being detected. All of course within the contexts of him bullshitting to Ezra to gain his trust. Either way Maul remains a "rumour" i.e. unconfirmed, and even if Sidious and Vader knew better evidently he's not on the most wanted list.
5. Just because they look the same doesn't mean they are. Have you ever heard of the concept called "uniformity?"Gosh now you are just being retarded, first of all its not a CIS or Republic base, like I said its a Mandalorian outpost (complete with a Mandalorian fighter). Second of all it's not a standard space station, but rather built into a pretty unique asteroid formation, but I suppose they mass produced that too? Still even if we assume it by some chance its merely a cousin of the previous facility that would still have fallen under Maul's control as Mandalore as well. But its pretty obvious its the very same.The CIS/Republic is going to pump out space stations with the same design because it's cheaper to mass produce parts for a single uniform model rather then making a unique space station ever single time. Until we get confirmation I can't agree with your assumption.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaGood, for a moment there I was expecting more mental gymnastics.
6. Fair enough.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Yes, that doesn't make him dumb which he'd have to be to confront Imperial Forces.4. I'd say the most retarded thing in this thread is you jumping to conclusions about what I meant and then suggesting that Maul would risk being found by Imperials in an effort to keep his skills honed.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
2. We don't know what these abilities constitute and it's most likely he did this on Malachor where he wouldn't be found by the Empire for using the Force or drawing his lightsaber.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
3. He has the time to do so on Malachor, I agree. Though how honed he can keep them by simply practicing katas is questionable.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
He doesn't need to throw down with imperials to keep his lightsaber skills honed.It doesn't matter where he honed his abilities, what matters is that he has the time and drive to hone his abilities
What the **** is katas?
Unless he's in a place completely free of Imperial presence I don't see how he's going to manage to whip it out and practice. Actually, did Maul even have a lightsaber post SoD? We know he got an old Inquisitor lightsaber but not when.
He has the time but not the capabilities as we know he didn't even have a lightsaber for an unspecified period of time and the fact that he wouldn't be able to have practiced wherever there existed an Imperial presence. For now I won't push the matter as we'll likely find out once the Ahsoka novel comes out and it's probably best to wait for it to come out then to make assumptions that'll probably be contradicted once it comes out.
They're training stances or something similar. It comes from PoD so I thought you'd recognize the term.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Unless he's in a place completely free of Imperial presence I don't see how he's going to manage to whip it out and practice. Actually, did Maul even have a lightsaber post SoD? We know he got an old Inquisitor lightsaber but not when.He has the time but not the capabilities as we know he didn't even have a lightsaber for an unspecified period of time and the fact that he wouldn't be able to have practiced wherever there existed an Imperial presence.
Literally everything you've said here applies to Ahsoka as well. So if Maul hasn't practiced, then neither has Ahsoka.
Difference is we know from TCW that even if Maul eats junk for a few years it only takes him a few fights to regain his skill.
In Rebels however, there was never any indication he ever even lost his skill in the first place.
There's literally nothing to back up Maul being out of shape. Nothing.
Ahsoka doesn't have allies like the Rebel Alliance and benefactors lik Bail Organa.
Except there's no evidence that he regained his skill and it's far more likely his performance is based off his growth in power.
Except for it being logical that he did given the circumstances as I explained above.
Except the logical fact that the against process weakens your physical body.
