Originally posted by Silent Master
Asking you to provide proof for your claims isn't trolling.However reporting someone for trolling so that you can avoid backing up your claims is trolling.
It is if you do so AFTER I asked what did you want me to prove.
"Prove it"
"Prove what?"
"Are you going to prove it?"
That's clear trolling.
Originally posted by h1a8
Cage wins both scenarios.
Prove Cage can KO Cap, using brass knuckles, especially before tiring out himself. It has taken hits from people like Iron Man, or Winter Soldier's metal arm, to do notable damage to him. Prove Cage can replicate that kind of damage output before tiring out, or losing in some other way. And I want actual evidence here. Not more of your personal opinions.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Prove Cage can KO Cap, using brass knuckles, especially before tiring out himself. It has taken hits from people like Iron Man, or Winter Soldier's metal arm, to do notable damage to him. Prove Cage can replicate that kind of damage output before tiring out, or losing in some other way. And I want actual evidence here. Not more of your personal opinions.
Brass knuckles >>>>>Caps skin since Cap is not bullet proof. Cap will easily occur damage against brass knuckles.
Taking hits without being koed doesn't mean that he can't get koed from something weaker but with more strikes.
The brass knuckles CAN bust Cap's skin and make him bleed. Cap still got arteries, veins, eyes, nerves, etc. in his face.
Remember Cap isn't bulletproof. Thus he's susceptible to damage with brass knuckles. I would say it would take between 25-50 hits to put him down rather than 1-3 hits for a normal human. Cap is definitely less than 10 times more durable than a normal human.
Originally posted by h1a8
Brass knuckles >>>>>Caps skin since Cap is not bullet proof. Cap will easily occur damage against brass knuckles.
Taking hits without being koed doesn't mean that he can't get koed from something weaker but with more strikes.The brass knuckles CAN bust Cap's skin and make him bleed. Cap still got arteries, veins, eyes, nerves, etc. in his face.
Remember Cap isn't bulletproof. Thus he's susceptible to damage with brass knuckles. I would say it would take between 25-50 hits to put him down rather than 1-3 hits for a normal human. Cap is definitely less than 10 times more durable than a normal human.
Brass knuckles being harder than his skin does not guarantee that it can cause significant damage. Just like his shield being virtually indestructible doesn't guarantee that it can always automatically cut through any substance. It still needs the required amount of force behind it to be effective. Also, piercing damage from knives/bullets is not the same as blunt force damage from something like brass knuckles. Knives have a far narrower edge, and bullets travel at a much greater velocity.
Case in point, Bucky throws Cap's shield back at him with his robotic arm, with enough force to send Steve skidding back a couple of feet across the ground, yet he catches the shield with his bare hands, and without sustaining any kind of damage. At 2:12 here:
Yet here we see how much damage a similar shield toss from Bucky does, at 2:04:
Once again, you have done nothing but pull numbers out of nowhere, and failed to provide any kind of actual onscreen evidence to support your claims.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Brass knuckles being harder than his skin does not guarantee that it can cause significant damage. Just like his shield being virtually indestructible doesn't guarantee that it can always automatically cut through any substance. It still needs the required amount of force behind it to be effective. Also, piercing damage from knives/bullets is not the same as blunt force damage from something like brass knuckles. Knives have a far narrower edge, and bullets travel at a much greater velocity.Case in point, Bucky throws Cap's shield back at him with his robotic arm, with enough force to send Steve skidding back a couple of feet across the ground, yet he catches the shield with his bare hands, and without sustaining any kind of damage. At 2:12 here:
Yet here we see how much damage a similar shield toss from Bucky does, at 2:04:
Once again, you have done nothing but pull numbers out of nowhere, and failed to provide any kind of actual onscreen evidence to support your claims.
Movies and action fiction are inconsistent. You can't equate one scene with another. In one scene, a character could be operating at a level far different than another scene. Writers aren't thinking about science when they write the script.
Also its possible to catch the shield without the full force striking the palms. Catching with the fingers and thumbs, in addition to the palms, spreads the force out so that it doesn't cut through the palm (which is flexible to a large extent). Think of lying on a bed of nails. The force is spread out. Also Cap absorbed the throw somewhat to dampen the impact (like catching an egg without breaking it).
Lastly
Pressure = Force/Area
Brass knuckles have sharp corners on them.
It doesn't take much extra force to break Cap's skin, or damage his arteries inside his skin, with brass knuckles over a knife.
Originally posted by h1a8
Movies and action fiction are inconsistent. You can't equate one scene with another. In one scene, a character could be operating at a level far different than another scene. Writers aren't thinking about science when they write the script.Also its possible to catch the shield without the full force striking the palms. Catching with the fingers and thumbs, in addition to the palms, spreads the force out so that it doesn't cut through the palm (which is flexible to a large extent). Think of lying on a bed of nails. The force is spread out. Also Cap absorbed the throw somewhat to dampen the impact (like catching an egg without breaking it).
Lastly
Pressure = Force/AreaBrass knuckles have sharp corners on them.
It doesn't take much extra force to break Cap's skin, or damage his arteries inside his skin, with brass knuckles over a knife.
That's priceless. Now you are basically trying to cherry pick what evidence to use to suit your argument, while still not providing any onscreen evidence to back your own stance. All you do is keep on making more and more claims. Also, that throw still had enough power to send him skidding back a couple of feet after he caught it, so there was still a good deal of force there.
Then, there is also this. At 0:53 QS clocks him right in the face. And while it does knock him on his ass temporarily, it does no notable damage, and we see that he is already back in action at 1:09:
In comparison, a superspeed punch from QS does this to a metal Ultron Bot, at 1:25:
But I suspect you are going to try the same "he was operating at a different level" line to try and dismiss valid screen feats, while providing nothing but your opinion in return.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
That's priceless. Now you are basically trying to cherry pick what evidence to use to suit your argument, while still not providing any onscreen evidence to back your own stance. All you do is keep on making more and more claims. Also, that throw still had enough power to send him skidding back a couple of feet after he caught it, so there was still a good deal of force there.Then, there is also this. At 0:53 QS clocks him right in the face. And while it does knock him on his ass temporarily, it does no notable damage, and we see that he is already back in action at 1:09:
In comparison, a superspeed punch from QS does this to a metal Ultron Bot, at 1:25:
But I suspect you are going to try the same "he was operating at a different level" line to try and dismiss valid screen feats, while providing nothing but your opinion in return.
He can't, because according to h1 people always hit with their full power, thus if he tries to use that argument, h1 will prove to everyone that his standards for proof fluctuate depending on who he wants to win.
Originally posted by Silent Master
He can't, because according to h1 people always hit with their full power, thus if he tries to use that argument, h1 will prove to everyone that his standards for proof fluctuate depending on who he wants to win.
That's why I am really curious to hear what he comes up with this time. But then, technically, he has already kind of done that, by implying that Bucky threw the shield with varying levels of power between the two scenes I posted (another thing which he failed to actually provide screen evidence for). Which makes zero sense if we assume that people always go 100% unless stated otherwise, like H1 has been saying. Also funny how he makes blanket statements about what writers are thinking about while they're writing scripts. And note, not just even this script in particular.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerThe fact that he skid back quite a distance PROVES there was little force on his hands. Remember
That's priceless. Now you are basically trying to cherry pick what evidence to use to suit your argument, while still not providing any onscreen evidence to back your own stance. All you do is keep on making more and more claims. Also, that throw still had enough power to send him skidding back a couple of feet after he caught it, so there was still a good deal of force there.Then, there is also this. At 0:53 QS clocks him right in the face. And while it does knock him on his ass temporarily, it does no notable damage, and we see that he is already back in action at 1:09:
In comparison, a superspeed punch from QS does this to a metal Ultron Bot, at 1:25:
But I suspect you are going to try the same "he was operating at a different level" line to try and dismiss valid screen feats, while providing nothing but your opinion in return.
The van and Cap did the same amount of work on the shield (they stopped its momentum). But it took Cap many times the distance and many times the time to do it. Thus he had to applied a much smaller force than the van.
And yes, characters operate at different levels at different scenes. That's why we get contradictions in fiction. Superman struggling to move a boulder in one scene and lifting tectonic plates in a nearby scene. QS has hit other humans and not killed them. Those bots were fodder, even Black Widow was damaging them with bullets and Hawkeye easily stabbed through one with his arrow (used as a knife). It's called the INVERSE NINJA LAW. They were nowhere as durability as even steel (probably tin or weak aluminum tbh)
Originally posted by Silent Master
He can't, because according to h1 people always hit with their full power, thus if he tries to use that argument, h1 will prove to everyone that his standards for proof fluctuate depending on who he wants to win.
Full power =/= same power
Full power = all one's might AT THAT TIME.
A character can, in one scene, hit with Full power (all their might) and it be less than another scene when they hit with less than full power (casual hitting) That's how inconsistent fiction.
Originally posted by h1a8
Full power =/= same power
Full power = all one's might AT THAT TIME.A character can, in one scene, hit with Full power (all their might) and it be less than another scene when they hit with less than full power (casual hitting) That's how inconsistent fiction.
So you're admitting that people don't always hit with 100% power?
Originally posted by Silent Master
So you're admitting that people don't always hit with 100% power?
Let's define 100% power as ALL ONE'S MIGHT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. This amount of power varies from scene to scene due to fiction inconsistency.
People always hit with 100% (or close to) of their might at that time (UNLESS it was stated or shown otherwise).
Originally posted by h1a8
Let's define 100% power as ALL ONE'S MIGHT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. This amount of power varies from scene to scene due to fiction inconsistency.People always hit with 100% (or close to) of their might at that time (UNLESS it was stated or shown otherwise).
100% is 100%, it doesn't vary.
If character A destroys a tank with a punch in one scene and then barely ko's a normal person with a punch in another. then it is obvious that he was holding back against the normal person.
Originally posted by Silent Master
100% is 100%, it doesn't vary.If character A destroys a tank with a punch in one scene and then barely ko's a normal person with a punch in another. then it is obvious that he was holding back against the normal person.
It does vary. 100% of my power now isn't the same as 100% of my power last year (I was 50% stronger). Especially in fiction where characters power levels fluctuate from scene to scene.
No it wasn't obvious that he was holding back. It's called fiction inconsistency.
Was Superman holding back when he was pushing on the boulder in Superman The Movie? He was straining heavily and it took him a few seconds just to budge the boulder. In a nearby scene, we have him lifting tectonic plates with less strain on his face.
Originally posted by h1a8
It does vary. 100% of my power now isn't the same as 100% of my power last year (I was 50% stronger). Especially in fiction where characters power levels fluctuate from scene to scene.No it wasn't obvious that he was holding back. It's called fiction inconsistency.
Was Superman holding back when he was pushing on the boulder in Superman The Movie? He was straining heavily and it took him a few seconds just to budge the boulder. In a nearby scene, we have him lifting tectonic plates with less strain on his face.
Get a mod ruling that states destroying a tank in one scene and barely ko'ing a normal human in another is down to fiction inconsistency and not holding back on the part of the person doing the punching.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Get a mod ruling that states destroying a tank in one scene and barely ko'ing a normal human in another is down to fiction inconsistency and not holding back on the part of the person doing the punching.
You are clearly exaggerating here. Destroying a tank vs. barely koing a human?
What examples of this level of discrepancy do you have? I would agree in that case of course since a tank is astronomically more durable than a human.