Originally posted by h1a8
You are clearly exaggerating here. Destroying a tank vs. barely koing a human?
What examples of this level of discrepancy do you have? I would agree in that case of course since a tank is astronomically more durable than a human.
If you want your opinion that holding back doesn't exist in movie unless specifically stated, get a mod ruling.
Originally posted by h1a8
The fact that he skid back quite a distance PROVES there was little force on his hands. Remember
Force = Change in Momentum/ Change in time
Force = Work/DistanceThe van and Cap did the same amount of work on the shield (they stopped its momentum). But it took Cap many times the distance and many times the time to do it. Thus he had to applied a much smaller force than the van.
Or, you know, there was still that much force behind it, despite him absorbing much of the power. And you are ignoring the fact that the van is many times heavier than Steve is, so it would require greater force to move it.
Originally posted by h1a8
And yes, characters operate at different levels at different scenes. That's why we get contradictions in fiction. Superman struggling to move a boulder in one scene and lifting tectonic plates in a nearby scene. QS has hit other humans and not killed them. Those bots were fodder, even Black Widow was damaging them with bullets and Hawkeye easily stabbed through one with his arrow (used as a knife). It's called the INVERSE NINJA LAW. They were nowhere as durability as even steel (probably tin or weak aluminum tbh)
Actually, Widow resorted mostly to her high-tech melee weapons to disable them. Hill shot one multiple times and did virtually no damage. Some of them were also busting through concrete. And name one human QS punched in the face with his fist.
Also, you still have yet to post any actual screen feats in support of your statements. Serious question. Are you actually planning on doing so? If not, I see no point in continuing to bother with this exchange.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Or, you know, there was still that much force behind it, despite him absorbing much of the power. And you are ignoring the fact that the van is many times heavier than Steve is, so it would require greater force to move it.Actually, Widow resorted mostly to her high-tech melee weapons to disable them. Hill shot one multiple times and did virtually no damage. Some of them were also busting through concrete. And name one human QS punched in the face with his fist.
Also, you still have yet to post any actual screen feats in support of your statements. Serious question. Are you actually planning on doing so? If not, I see no point in continuing to bother with this exchange.
It doesn't matter if the Van was a planet. It exerted MORE force to stop the shield than Cap did. The both exerted the same amount of energy though (Work). Don't confuse Energy with Force. Cap lowered the amount of force needed by increasing the distance.
Widow shot bullets at them. Who the hell is Hill? Clint Barton stabbed right through one with an arrow. The were tin foil fodder bots. Nothing remotely close to steel. Inverse Ninja Law.
QS struck Clint in the woods.
Originally posted by h1a8
If it isn't stated or shown then holding back isn't the case. Unless you have an astronomical difference (a tank vs. human). But that would count as the SHOWN.So holding back exists if it is stated or shown.
We gave you examples of it being shown and you claimed that was just examples of fiction inconsistency.
Nice to see that you're so afraid of getting a mod ruling that you have to change your entire argument.
Originally posted by h1a8
It doesn't matter if the Van was a planet. It exerted MORE force to stop the shield than Cap did. The both exerted the same amount of energy though (Work). Don't confuse Energy with Force. Cap lowered the amount of force needed by increasing the distance.
I am well aware of the difference in force and energy. But we are discussing the shield toss itself. The fact remains that Cap's body/overall ability allowed him to absorb enough of the energy that he only skidded back a few feet (and without sustaining any damage), despite the fact that the van has a mass many times greater than his. That's literally the whole point. He is good enough overall to soak up those kinds of impacts without damage (just like you can roll with punches to the face, to lessen the damage). The difference in mass can explain the difference in distance traveled. You have yet to prove the two tosses actually varied in power.
Originally posted by h1a8
Widow shot bullets at them. Who the hell is Hill? Clint Barton stabbed right through one with an arrow. The were tin foil fodder bots. Nothing remotely close to steel. Inverse Ninja Law.
Yes, she did shoot on occasion, but had comparatively little success in doing so. Her electrical batons were much more effective. And the fact that you don't know who she is speaks volumes. And Clint's arrows are SHIELD tech and material, and he stabbed it through the eyesocket, IIRC.
Originally posted by h1a8
QS struck Clint in the woods.
I asked you who he punched in the face. He didn't punch Clint in the face. He knocked into him.
Anyway, I PM'd Imp and asked him to weigh in when he has the time. If your stance really is as solid as you think, you should have no problem convincing him. Until he makes a judgment, I am done here.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerThe concrete in contact with
I am well aware of the difference in force and energy. But we are discussing the shield toss itself. The fact remains that Cap's body/overall ability allowed him to absorb enough of the energy that he only skidded back a few feet (and without sustaining any damage), despite the fact that the van has a mass many times greater than his. That's literally the whole point. He is good enough overall to soak up those kinds of impacts. The difference in mass can explain the difference in distance traveled. You have yet to prove the two tosses actually varied in power.Yes, she did shoot on occasion, but had comparatively little success in doing so. Her electrical batons were much more effective. And the fact that you don't know who she is speaks volumes. And Clint's arrows are SHIELD tech and material, and he stabbed it through the eyesocket, IIRC.
I asked you who he punched in the face. He didn't punch Clint in the face. He knocked into him.
Anyway, I PM'd Imp and asked him to weigh in when he has the time. If your stance really is as solid as you think, you should have no problem convincing him. Until he makes a judgment, I am done here.
Clint stabbed it through under its chin. Also IM's repulser blasts shatter them. In another scene IM shot humans with those same blasts and koed them.
The problem with a mod ruling is that BOTH sides should be heard first. One side can easily exaggerate (almost to the point of lying) to make it seem that the alternative is asinine. Two members should present their cases and then the mod should rule. Not one member presenting a strawmanned case.
QS didn't punch any human in the face (I'm not sure where exactly he struck Clint). Why is that relevant? He didn't strike to bot in the face. He struck the bot in the chest. He struck Clint as well. Clint was fine and Cap was fine (well Cap was kinda dazed).
Originally posted by h1a8
The problem with a mod ruling is that BOTH sides should be heard first. One side can easily exaggerate (almost to the point of lying) to make it seem that the alternative is asinine. Two members should present their cases and then the mod should rule. Not one member presenting a strawmanned case.
Yes, and that is why I posted exactly where in the thread it was that our exchange started, as well as on which page it was. I even included my post from page 10, which started it:
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Prove Cage can KO Cap, using brass knuckles, especially before tiring out himself. It has taken hits from people like Iron Man, or Winter Soldier's metal arm, to do notable damage to him. Prove Cage can replicate that kind of damage output before tiring out, or losing in some other way. And I want actual evidence here. Not more of your personal opinions.
That way he can read our entire exchange before commenting. Until then, I am done here.
If he does comment, someone can maybe also ask him to clear up this 100% force/fluctuating levels argument.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yes, and that is why I posted exactly where in the thread it was that our exchange started, as well as on which page it was. I even included my post from page 10, which started it:That way he can read our entire exchange before commenting. Until then, I am done here.
If he does comment, someone can maybe also ask him to clear up this 100% force/fluctuating levels argument.
But it's true and you know it.
Answer me this honestly and I'll consider you.
Do you believe that, in fiction, character's levels don't fluctuate and everything we see in movies, comics, etc. acts like REAL life?
In other words, if a character moved tectonic plates with less strain then they shouldn't strain more to move a boulder weighing significantly less?
In other words, do you believe there is no such thing as fiction inconsistency?
Originally posted by h1a8
But it's true and you know it.
Answer me this honestly and I'll consider you.Do you believe that, in fiction, character's levels don't fluctuate and everything we see in movies, comics, etc. acts like REAL life?
In other words, if a character moved tectonic plates with less strain then they shouldn't strain more to move a boulder weighing significantly less?
In other words, do you believe there is no such thing as fiction inconsistency?
I have never said any such thing. Sometimes there are some inconsistencies in different media. It's not limited to television/film/comics. And it is not even limited to fiction. But it is by no means a rule. There is a reason for a thing called continuity. Inconsistencies are a sign of generally poor writing/storytelling/reporting etc. (whatever the case may be), and are considered, by most good writers, to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. So we don't simply assume that power levels are randomly fluctuating, without reason, without any evidence of them doing so. So if someone want to claim that it is the case between two specific instances, the burden of proof is on them to show that it is. What you are referring to there in your example is an explicit example of PIS, something that is criticised in general, as PIS is the result of poor writing.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I have never said any such thing. Sometimes there are some inconsistencies in different media. It's not limited to television/film/comics. And it is not even limited to fiction. But it is by no means a rule. There is a reason for a thing called continuity. Inconsistencies are a sign of generally poor writing/storytelling/reporting etc. (whatever the case may be), and are considered, by most good writers, to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. So we don't simply assume that power levels are randomly fluctuating, without reason, without any evidence of them doing so. So if someone want to claim that it is the case between two specific instances, the burden of proof is on them to show that it is. What you are referring to there in your example is an explicit example of PIS, something that is criticised in general, as PIS is the result of poor writing.
I agree. It's due to poor writing that gives us the fluctuations in power level. That's why we shouldn't use one feat to equate another feat unless it's an average showing. In the comic forum, we assume characters are operating at their average when no specific power level is given or shown. That means if Thing survives a punch from Namor then we assume that Namor was operating at his average (not his highest).
Some posters will come out and say silly stuff like
"Gladiator has busted planets by punching them. Colossus has tanked Gladiator punches. Therefore Thing couldn't even bother him with punches."
They do that argument with Thanos a lot, despite the fact that 100% of the time a high herald always effects Thanos with a punch (Thanos never no sold a high heralds blunt attack, only their blast attack).
I then tell the poster that they can't equate Gladiator's feat of busting a planet with every other showing. Otherwise, we have to assume every punch is a planet destroying punch made by him. This will lead us to some crazy contradictions.