Ragnos: the ancient Sith's MVP?
Long ago, Ragnos was thought of as the most powerful ancient Sith in terms of just about everything.
Now, we've gotten a lot of sources that indicate much of his success owed to cunning, strategy, and general respect than just brute force.
With that in mind, and all we've learned about other ancient Sith like Muur, Hord, Pall, etc. can we still regard Ragnos as supreme?
Re: Ragnos: the ancient Sith's MVP?
Originally posted by The_TempestIsn't there a source that also calls him the most powerful?
Long ago, Ragnos was thought of as the most powerful ancient Sith in terms of just about everything.Now, we've gotten a lot of sources that indicate much of his success owed to cunning, strategy, and general respect than just brute force.
With that in mind, and all we've learned about other ancient Sith like Muur, Hord, Pall, etc. can we still regard Ragnos as supreme?
I know Kun surpassed him in that regard.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66welp, my argument was that nadd>kun. If we are to establish that both were powerhouses and yet nadd yielded to ragnos, that's more evidence of ragnos' superiority.
The only way the hierarchy would be maintained is via power, in my opinion.At the end of the day, a Sith isn't going to be bossed around by a weaker Sith.
His vast reserves of force knowledge and power as evidenced by gameplay sourcebooks (n-canon but paints a picture), as well as his holocron that took Bane a decade to study. His much better showing against the Massassi than Kun when they both were at the beginning of their sith careers. Nadd had the fortune of traveling to the sith empire uninterrupted and gathering everything that wasn't discovered (as most of the sith empire was still undiscovered by the republic). Mastering all of Sadow's techniques was what had Kun going for him but Nadd did the same. The other thing Kun might have had in his favor was the Ossus library, if he had time to study it that is.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Solid argument. However, don't forget Exar Kun retrieved the Dark Holocron from Odan-Urr.Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that contain nearly all the teachings of the Sith Empire?
Also, I'm not sure the Massassi comparison is fair since Kun didn't have the Force available to him.
1. I don't recall it saying it had ALL the teachings of the sith, just that it had teachings of the sith dating back 100,000 years. Nadd instead had things like Adas' holocron, which alone allowed him to conquer Onderon singlehandedly, not to mention whatever else he found within the Old Sith Empire.
2. Why wasn't the force available to him again? Remind me, I don't recall. And if the force was unavailable to him, wouldn't that further show Nadd's dominance, who showed no such hindrance?
3. Lets also take into the account that Exar Kun was a sith lord for less than a year, while Nadd was around for decades? That would further explain why he had 10 years worth of knowledge locked within his holocron. Kun may have had considerable sources at his disposal, but he lacked the time to absorb them.
1. Yeah, fair enough. I would point out that he has all of Naga Sadow's knowledge, but so does Freedon Nadd. 👆
2. The text made it intentionally vague, but it seems to either be because of the dark side nexus of the world or Freedon Nadd was intentionally suppressing his abilities. I don't think it would show Nadd's dominance, however, since he was already a Sith who had access to the planet's power, whereas Exar Kun was cut off from his power since he still was a Jedi and wielded the light-side, if that makes sense. When Exar Kun embraced the dark side, we saw him destroying the Massassi en masse.
3. Actually, Freedon Nadd was a Sith for a *century*, in contrast to Kun's year. Another point in Freedon Nadd's favor. 😉
However, even if Freedon Nadd has greater mastery, knowledge, and experience, Exar Kun *does* have the edge in both power (based on feats and the "most powerful"quotes) and lightsaber abilities. I muse (it's hard to really tell when dealing with characters like these, so speculation is needed, if you ask me) that said factors would be enough for him to best Freedon Nadd (which just makes sense to me, since Kun blasted his ass out of existence), but I think your arguments here, at the very least, show they're close. 👆
The text made it intentionally vague, but it seems to either be because of the dark side nexus of the world or Freedon Nadd was intentionally suppressing his abilities. I don't think it would show Nadd's dominance, however, since he was already a Sith who had access to the planet's power, whereas Exar Kun was cut off from his power since he still was a Jedi and wielded the light-side, if that makes sense. When Exar Kun embraced the dark side, we saw him destroying the Massassi en masse.
In my opinion, that was some PIS. I didn't really understand how embracing the dark side could magically open up force reserves. Then again, I don't understand how Nadd's spirit could block Kun's force abilities either. One thing to note though that Nadd was NOT a sith yet, when he came to Yavin IV. He became a sith after studying under Sadow. Before that, he was just aspiring.
Actually, Freedon Nadd was a Sith for a *century*, in contrast to Kun's year. Another point in Freedon Nadd's favor.
However, even if Freedon Nadd has greater mastery, knowledge, and experience, Exar Kun *does* have the edge in both power (based on feats and the "most powerful"quotes) and lightsaber abilities.
Also other things to consider. Like you mentioned, 100 years of knowledge vs. 1. All other things being equal or near equal should favor Nadd.
2. Nadd's sagging face. The ONLY other time we've seen the ravages of the dark side affect a user to that degree is Sidious. To me that denotes massive power.
3. Nadd's abilities as a sith spirit. He was one of the only spirits in the mythos that could travel to any planet, and he was able to use the force against living beings such as knocking Vodo back (doing it telepathically across the galaxy).
4. His spiritual presence alone darkened the skies of Onderon for centuries.
There are others but that's all I have this late at night.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
So we're going off knowledge and that's it? Kun's already confirmed to have Nadd's knowledge as well as Sadow's, plus "more knowledge than he would ever need" from the Ossus library.
Which becomes a moot point considering Kun was barely alive for 6 months as a sith. Also it's highly unlikely he would have ALL of Nadd's knowledge, seeing as how he didn't have access to Nadd's holocron or Adas' holocron.
As Ant said, Nadd most likely had first dibs on all Old Sith Empire tomes/scrolls/holocrons since the sith were only hunted down on Korriban and the Sith Emperor abandoned those worlds entirely. So that's a point in his favor for knowledge and the 100 years he had to use said knowledge.
In my opinion, that was some PIS. I didn't really understand how embracing the dark side could magically open up force reserves. Then again, I don't understand how Nadd's spirit could block Kun's force abilities either
You have to remember that this we're dealing with pre-PT material; lots of the concepts regarding the Force weren't fleshed out and largely left to the authors. I always interpreted it as a "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" thing; because he embraced the dark side on Korriban, the power of the light was out of his reach forevermore, or something to that effect.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
You have to remember that this we're dealing with pre-PT material; lots of the concepts regarding the Force weren't fleshed out and largely left to the authors. I always interpreted it as a "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" thing; because he embraced the dark side on Korriban, the power of the light was out of his reach forevermore, or something to that effect.
Even if I concede this point, I recall he was able to activate the amulet instantly after embracing the dark side. I also don't remember any mention of Nadd having an amulet during his victory over the Massassi (since Nadd gave it to him during his training).