Ragnos: the ancient Sith's MVP?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
In my opinion, that was some PIS. I didn't really understand how embracing the dark side could magically open up force reserves. Then again, I don't understand how Nadd's spirit could block Kun's force abilities either. One thing to note though that Nadd was NOT a sith yet, when he came to Yavin IV. He became a sith after studying under Sadow. Before that, he was just aspiring.

Point being, if it was the nexus that blocked Exar Kun's light-side abilities, I don't think the same would have occurred to Freedon Nadd.

If that's not what happened, in which PIS is honestly possible since the situation was unlike anything we seen since, I still don't find the comparison fair.

I also remember the century quote but I was having trouble reconciling the idea that a human could live well over a century without stasis or some arcane rituals.

All the better for Nadd, though. 👆

What about the quote about Nadd's short lightsaber?

Also which most powerful quotes? I wonder if they include guys like Nadd.

I'm inclined to believe his predecessors are being considered because the statement wouldn't be relevant otherwise.

Of course Exar Kun would be the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith of his day - he was the only one.

They must be comparing him to other Dark Lords of the Sith, such as Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, etc.

Raw power may be the only thing Kun has an advantage in and that's also highly debatable, due to Nadd being able to contest Jedi Masters at a very young age.

2. Nadd's sagging face. The ONLY other time we've seen the ravages of the dark side affect a user to that degree is Sidious. To me that denotes massive power.

If SWTOR never happened, I'd agree with you. But check out Darth Zash and I'm inclined to believe it's not that relevant.

3. Nadd's abilities as a sith spirit. He was one of the only spirits in the mythos that could travel to any planet, and he was able to use the force against living beings such as knocking Vodo back (doing it telepathically across the galaxy).

http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/bam_oh10.jpg

Note they even use Freedon Nadd as an example, which I highlighted in yellow.

4. His spiritual presence [b]alone darkened the skies of Onderon for centuries.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
As Ant said, Nadd most likely

Ching, can you quote me on where Kun had Nadd's knowledge?

True, but I think he's clearly a dark-side Force-user. He leaves the Jedi wishing to be the greatest Sith sorcerer ever.

Point being, if it was the nexus that blocked Exar Kun's light-side abilities, I don't think the same would have occurred to Freedon Nadd.

If that's not what happened, in which PIS is honestly possible since the situation was unlike anything we seen since, I still don't find the comparison fair.

I think you're thinking of the quote about his blaster. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he [Exar Kun] was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

I'm inclined to believe his predecessors are being considered because the statement wouldn't be relevant otherwise.

Of course Exar Kun would be the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith of his day - he was the only one.

They must be comparing him to other Dark Lords of the Sith, such as Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, etc.

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he [Exar Kun] was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

I'm inclined to believe his predecessors are being considered because the statement wouldn't be relevant otherwise.

Of course Exar Kun would be the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith of his day - he was the only one.

They must be comparing him to other Dark Lords of the Sith, such as Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, etc.

If SWTOR never happened, I'd agree with you. But check out Darth Zash and I'm inclined to believe it's not that relevant.

All dark side spirits have the ability to teleport to other dark side nexus' according to JATM.

http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/bam_oh10.jpg

Note they even use Freedon Nadd as an example, which I highlighted in yellow.

Well, if we're defining a nexus as "any place that is unnaturally strong in the Force," they certainly fit the description. After all, Korriban and Yavin IV are among the greatest dark side focal points in the galaxy.

Bah you're correct. I wonder wtf that says about his blaster skills though, lol.

This is vague precisely because he was the only dark lord of the sith and because the last dark lord lived over 1,000 years prior to his birth. Its validity creates more questions when you again consider that Kun was a sith lord for 6 months and logically, there is no way he could compare to most of the powerhouses in that span.

My point is Kun didn't necessarily have the advantage in raw power because Nadd was considered a match for the Jedi Masters as well.

How many of them had the freedom and flexibility that Nadd possessed? Ragnos only appears when two amulets are put together or enough force energy goes into his sarcophagus. Muur is confined to his talisman. Andeddu to his holocron. Kun to his temples (although I understand that was a product of the Wall of Light), but he still required a ritual. It appears that Nadd just dies and roams the stars, goes wherever he pleases. Nobody in the mythos has that ability as a spirit other than Vitiate/Valkorion.

Well, if we're defining a nexus as "any place that is unnaturally strong in the Force," they certainly fit the description. After all, Korriban and Yavin IV are among the greatest dark side focal points in the galaxy.

Well Freedon Nadd lived in the millennium between Naga Sadow and Exar Kun, so the time span between them should only be in the centuries. I get your point though. However, I think accepting that the quote is referring to other Dark Lords of the Sith is the most logical assumption. And in regards to how Exar Kun could have become so powerful in such a small amount of time, don't forget that he was a prodigy beyond all measures - more so than Freedon Nadd, I imagine. His ability to study and master techniques was likely at an unprecedented rate. Sources point to numerous significant power growths across his career, with him studying dark side practices being the reason.

Interesting argument, but I'm not sure I agree. Obviously not all Jedi Masters are equal, and plus Kun bested Vodo whereas Nadd was ultimately inferior to Tremayne.

Well note that the scan I provided does confirm that spirits have the ability to teleport to dark side nexus' under the basis they are familiar with the place. Perhaps Ragnos' lack of ability to teleport stems from the fact he was confined within Sith Space for all his life. The same applies to Muur, who was stuck on Korriban his entire life. And then Andeddu generally only resided on Korriban and Prakith. Freedon Nadd shouldn't have those limitations. Your point is interesting though, and certainly something to think over.

If you take those Sith spirits in SoR to be more than just easter eggs, then Ragnos and Hord appear on Yavin IV.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If you take those Sith spirits in SoR to be more than just easter eggs, then Ragnos and Hord appear on Yavin IV.

I'm fairly certain they're easter eggs though.

I perceive Tulak Hord as the MVP of ancient Sith.

Considering Exar Kun replaced an amped Spirit of Freedon Nadd as a great power in the galaxy, well before his prime, I think we can safely assume Kun > Nadd. That's if we ignore Kun's most powerful ancient Sith quotes, which by the way directly proclaim him to be more powerful than anybody else in the article, including Nadd, Sadow and Qel-Droma.

Also, the Dark Holocron > all Sith Holocrons is canon, but anyway.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Considering Exar Kun replaced an amped Spirit of Freedon Nadd as a great power in the galaxy, well before his prime, I think we can safely assume Kun > Nadd. That's if we ignore Kun's most powerful ancient Sith quotes, which by the way directly proclaim him to be more powerful than anybody else in the article, including Nadd, Sadow and Qel-Droma.

Also, the Dark Holocron > all Sith Holocrons is canon, but anyway.

Let's just review what you said. Because Exar Kun (with his amped amulet), replaced a spirit as a power in the galaxy along with the Keos as the only darkside powers in the galaxy, that puts him above Nadd? That makes zero sense. Go ahead and review that logic for a second. We also don't know what "prime" Kun is since he lasted about 6 months.

As far as his "quotes", there was A quote. Singular.

Remind me where it says the Dark Holocron>all sith Holocrons? Then go ahead and tell me how him having that holocron is relevant if he was able to study it for barely 6 months? You might as well say Kun>Nadd because Kun pillaged the library of Ossus.

I'm laughing at six months, source? Because there are two indications from the DS Sourcebook, that state the war took years, not months. What's with you and Moose peddling this time-table?

Freedon Nadd's spirit, amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi spirits, was sensed by Vodo, who proclaimed that a 'great power' had fallen, and another had risen in its place. Kun goes on to gain 'extreme' powers, before even retrieving the Dark Holocron or the Chamber of Antiquities.

There are two quotes, one of which Ant refers to, the other is from the Official Fact File. The article containing Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ulic Qel-Droma and Naga Sadow, proclaims Exar Kun as the most powerful Sith. This is retconned by Sidious and eventually Vitiate, but that doesn't spare any of the Sith the article refers to.

Have you read any of the New Essential Guides? I'd suggest reading the New Essential Guide of Weapons & Technology.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm laughing at six months, source? Because there are two indications from the DS Sourcebook, that state the war took years, not months. What's with you and Moose peddling this time-table?

Freedon Nadd's spirit, amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi spirits, was sensed by Vodo, who proclaimed that a 'great power' had fallen, and another had risen in its place. Kun goes on to gain 'extreme' powers, before even retrieving the Dark Holocron or the Chamber of Antiquities.

There are two quotes, one of which Ant refers to, the other is from the Official Fact File. The article containing Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ulic Qel-Droma and Naga Sadow, proclaims Exar Kun as the most powerful Sith. This is retconned by Sidious and eventually Vitiate, but that doesn't spare any of the Sith the article refers to.

Have you read any of the New Essential Guides? I'd suggest reading the New Essential Guide of Weapons & Technology.

This 👆Kun has also more impressive feats, tbh.

I'm laughing at six months, source? Because there are two indications from the DS Sourcebook, that state the war took years, not months. What's with you and Moose peddling this time-table?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Sith_War

Well what do you know, the war took place in the span of 1 year. Giving Kun the absolute benefit of the doubt, he was a sith lord for another...Year maybe? So once again, you have a sith lord who had around 1-2 years to study the dark side (more like 1 unless he was sitting on his ass and not directing his war), versus 2 guys who ruled for around 100 years? Yea, no competition.

Freedon Nadd's spirit, amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi spirits, was sensed by Vodo, who proclaimed that a 'great power' had fallen, and another had risen in its place. Kun goes on to gain 'extreme' powers, before even retrieving the Dark Holocron or the Chamber of Antiquities.

As far as the Chamber of Antiquities and the Dark Holocron, who exactly cares? He was around for 1-2 years. Nobody cares how much knowledge he possessed (which you can't quantify anyway). It doesn't begin to compare to Nadd and Ragnos' 100 years with sith knowledge at their disposal.

There are two quotes, one of which Ant refers to, the other is from the Official Fact File. The article containing Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ulic Qel-Droma and Naga Sadow, proclaims Exar Kun as the most powerful Sith. This is retconned by Sidious and eventually Vitiate, but that doesn't spare any of the Sith the article refers to.

Have you read any of the New Essential Guides? I'd suggest reading the New Essential Guide of Weapons & Technology.

As far as "Moose", I don't talk to "Moose". But it seems our timeline makes a hell of a lot more sense than yours.

Kun's Dark Lord from 3997 - 3996 BBY, yeah.

@AP - There's also sources that claim it was a whole decade between Malak's fall and the rise of the Sith Triumvirate, even though it was only a year after Malak's fall.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Kun's Dark Lord from 3997 - 3996 BBY, yeah.

@AP - There's also sources that claim it was a whole decade between Malak's fall and the rise of the Sith Triumvirate, even though it was only a year after Malak's fall.

Right. So Kun was a sith lord for barely a year, therfore his knowledge repository is irrelevant.

AP's only leg to stand on at this point is that 1 quote which again, one can debate the legitimacy of.

Depends on how much time he spent studying. Isn't there a source that claims that he studied everything from Sadow's legacy on Yavin IV? And he studied the Dark Holocron, among others.

EDIT: Nadd is the one who was stated to study everything. Kun's just stated to have access to all of Sadow's treasures. However, Kun did supersede Sadow in terms of Alchemical mastery, so that might be a reflection of his knowledge.

Depends on how much time he spent studying. Isn't there a source that claims that he studied everything from Sadow's legacy on Yavin IV? And he studied the Dark Holocron, among others.

Sure I'll grant you alchemical mastery but that can just be due to the fact that it didn't interest Nadd. I'm hoping this is enough to stop the narrative of Kun>Nadd. Nadd has too much in his favor.

Well, knowledge is one thing, and if we take the TotJ Companion Guide, then there's few beings who are more knowledgeable than Nadd. Kun's more powerful, though, per TCSWE and that Fact File quote.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, knowledge is one thing, and if we take the TotJ Companion Guide, then there's few beings who are more knowledgeable than Nadd. Kun's more powerful, though, per TCSWE and that Fact File quote.

What are the exact quotes? Like I said I can't dispute the quotes, I can just try and dispute the validity based on the information we have on both characters. Nadd had overwhelming knowledge, a century of rule, enough to fill a decade's worth of sith knowledge into a holocron, etc.

Kun had one year with arguably less knowledge available to him. If you don't look at the quotes, it becomes pretty evident, correct?