TCW Darth Maul vs. Count Dooku (Force battle)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, Maul was already off the platform and in mid-air. He wasn't in the center of the explosion and was likely just tossed by it. He gets some props for minimising the damage but it's hardly stellar.

It's also stated that Boondara's padawan, who was in a skycar 10 meters beneath the platform, would have herself been killed by the blast if not for the platform itself (and even the is knocked off the skycar that almost crashes). So it's radius was evidently considerable.

10x15 meters isn't tiny, lol.

If he's jumping away from it, its easier for him to allow the force of the explosion to toss him away instead of envelop him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
[B]Once again your comprehension skills fail you, I never said the power cell exploded before Maul leapt away, but rather it exploded simultaneously with Maul's attempt to escape the explosion. An explosion that was moving at speeds far beyond what Maul should realistically be capable of evading.

I have nothing to say but that the text, quite literally, disagrees with your opinion on the matter. Shall we look again.

“The superheated energy blade melted with lightning swiftness through the housing and sank into the bike’s power cell core. Maul turned and leapt from the platform, reaching for the dark side, enfolding himself in it even as the power cell exploded, the heat and pressure wave vaporizing the Jedi in a microsecond and then expanding, reaching hungrily for him, as well.

Excerpt From: Michael Reaves. “Shadow Hunter.

Maul gained distance from the explosion - there is no denying that fact. Suck it up. So there are two logical conclusions to draw from 1) There is some elapsed time between Bondara's blade hitting whatever fuel powers the device, and the explosion of said device which would give Maul mere moments to reach a safer distance. 2) That Maul outpaced the explosion as it happened with a short burst of Force speed. Maul had already lept from the platform before the explosion could reach him, so there is no other explanation. Wether you think Maul can not realistically move that fast or not, is moot.

Your attempt to compound reaction speed with speed of movement being a moot point for obvious reasons.

If maul can use the Force in a manner that allows him to percieve such a short time-ellipse, then he could probably augment his muscles in a manner that allows him to match that speed, all else being equal. Got any other ideas?

And I really needn't have to point out that when something explodes, the smart idea is to move away from the explosion, but apparently so.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The landing platform was tiny, 10x15 meters,

Ten or Fifteen meters is more than enough distance to mean the difference between a fried skull to merely broken bones and damaged organs. Thank you for providing me that information.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Maul gained distance from the explosion - there is no denying that fact. Suck it up. So there are two logical conclusions to draw from 1) There is some elapsed time between Bondara's blade hitting whatever fuel powers the device, and the explosion of said device which would give Maul mere moments to reach a safer distance. 2) That Maul outpaced the explosion as it happened with a short burst of Force speed. Maul had already lept from the platform before the explosion could reach him, so there is no other explanation. Wether you think Maul can not realistically move that fast or not, is moot.

"Distance" being anywhere from a meter, to 10, and considering the explosion's nigh instantaneous nature, more likely to be the latter. The fact that it would have killed Darsha, who was herself ten meters from the platform, make it even more unlikely Maul escaped its deadly effects.

If maul can use the Force in a manner that allows him to percieve such a short time-ellipse, then he could probably augment his muscles in a manner that allows him to match that speed, all else being equal. Got any other ideas?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Ten or Fifteen meters is more than enough distance to mean the difference between a fried skull to merely broken bones and damaged organs. Thank you for providing me that information.

On the other hand we already know its killing force is at least 10 meters in radius.

Beni slicin' and dicin'. 👆

Where were Maul's explosion-tanking Barriers when it came time to deflect Force Lightning? And even Kenobi has tanked explosions:

Didn't prevent Dooku from doing this:

Dooku still dominates.

What? Kenobi's ability to endure explosions has no bearing on his ability to stop Dooku' ragdolling him. Go back to sleep, there will be plenty of time to embarrass yourself when I get to your post.

I assume this applies to Maul as well. Saying otherwise would be a double standard. So Maul's ability to tank explosions - his only notable defensive showing - has no bearing on his (in)ability to stop Dooku's TK. Good to know.

And Kenobi being completely knocked out by a simple Force throw spells certain doom for Maul.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Christ, I'm aware Maul gained some distance from the explosion

And this is the grand phenomena in argumentum dialect where the opponent contradicts previous statements he originally made for his case. In this instance Beni, your argument at this precise moement is inconsistent with statements and assertions made on the previous page. A little reminder of what those were.

but rather it exploded simultaneously with Maul's attempt to escape the explosion. An explosion that was moving at speeds far beyond what Maul should realistically be
moving

- Beniboybling

Here you assert that Maul's attempt to escape the explosion happens at the same time as the explosion itself. You also assert that Maul should not be able to relistically move as fast as the explosion. So something is wrong here, Beni. If Maul's escape attempt and the explosion happen at the same time, then how can the explosion be moving at speeds far faster then what maul should be capable of, if Maul managed to reach some distance from it? The answer : it's impossible. So one way or another, this is a concession.

but this does not mean he escape the full intensity of the blast from ultimately engulfing him.

Yes it does, and even two or three meters can mean the difference between damaging steel structures, broken ribs and a stopped heart. Your original assertion was that Maul could protect himself from energy that vaporises flesh, so far, that it not true.

"Distance" being anywhere from a meter, to 10, and considering the explosion's nigh instantaneous nature, more likely to be the latter.

Distance being anywhere between 1 meter to 15 actually. And then you can considerer how many meters away he was from the platforms edge after he cleared it - probably about another two or three more meters. The most scientifically parsimonious measurement of deduction, is to take an average measurement and not a biased one. In this case we have a 15 by 10 meter platform, so that number should be around seven. Add another 2 meters for the distance he cleared the platform and we have 9 meters.

The fact that it would have kille Darsha, who was herself ten meters from the platform, make it even more unlikely Maul escaped its deadly effects.

Perhaps you'd like to move those goalposts back? Seen as your original assertion was that Maul could protect himself from energy that vaporises human bodies and not simply "kill them". So what ? Are you now trying to prove why Maul can protect himself from something that would kill a human? much like every other Jedi in existance can? Cool story. How does this prevent him from getting 1 paneled by Dooku?

Because muscles and synapses are equivalent, are you that retarded?

Neurons that link the spinal cord to the muscles can travel at speeds ranging from 70-120 meters per second. If he can use the Force to to process information at a superman rate, he could likely do the same for his legs. The process would be slower, but not by much.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Beni slicin' and dicin'. 👆

Don't be annoying syndicate. Tell me, how can Beni be slicin & dicin, when he contradicted himself twice? By stating Maul couldn't have created any distance between himself and the explosion, to then admitting that he must have. And then by moving the goalposts. Stating that Maul protected himself from energy that would merely have killed Darsha Assant, from his original position that he could protect himself from energy that vaporised Anoon Bondara? No one should be getting any medals for proving that a Force user can protect themselves from attack that would normally kill someone. In this case, Maul's force barrier is less impressive than the Landing platform itself.

Originally posted by Azronger
I assume this applies to Maul as well. Saying otherwise would be a double standard. So Maul's ability to tank explosions - his only notable defensive showing - has no bearing on his (in)ability to stop Dooku's TK. Good to know.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No, the ability to tank explosions has nothing to do with preventing ragdolling, well done for working out what nobody but yourself suggested.

I never even suggested it in the first place, it was merely a remark on how you reduced Maul's already slim chances of resisting Dooku's telekinetic influence to zero.

You missed the point of my post. The point being that Kenobi was knocked out by it, not that he was ragdolled. Even if Dooku isn't ragdolling Maul (which I doubt he isn't), he could still knock him out with a simple Force Push - which is easier to do mid-combat than Grip - relatively easily, the result being this:

Beni taking major L's rite now...

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And this is the grand phenomena in argumentum dialect where the opponent contradicts previous statements he originally made for his case. In this instance Beni, your argument at this precise moement is inconsistent with statements and assertions made on the previous page. A little reminder of what those were.

- Beniboybling

Here you assert that Maul's attempt to escape the explosion happens at the same time as the explosion itself. You also assert that Maul should not be able to relistically move as fast as the explosion. So something is wrong here, Beni. If Maul's escape attempt and the explosion happen at the same time, then how can the explosion be moving at speeds far faster then what maul should be capable of, if Maul managed to reach some distance from it? The answer : it's impossible. So one way or another, this is a concession.

On the other hand, there remains no proof that Maul ultimately escaped the worse of it. But keep trying.

Yes it does, and even two or three meters can mean the difference between damaging steel structures, broken ribs and a stopped heart. Your original assertion was that Maul could protect himself from energy that vaporises flesh, so far, that it not true.

Distance being anywhere between 1 meter to 15 actually. And then you can considerer how many meters away he was from the platforms edge after he cleared it - probably about another two or three more meters. The most scientifically parsimonious measurement of deduction, is to take an average measurement and not a biased one. In this case we have a 15 by 10 meter platform, so that number should be around seven. Add another 2 meters for the distance he cleared the platform and we have 9 meters.

Perhaps you'd like to move those goalposts back? Seen as your original assertion was that Maul could protect himself from energy that vaporises human bodies and not simply "kill them". So what ? Are you now trying to prove why Maul can protect himself from something that would kill a human? much like every other Jedi in existance can? Cool story. How does this prevent him from getting 1 paneled by Dooku?

Neurons that link the spinal cord to the muscles can travel at speeds ranging from 70-120 meters per second. If he can use the Force to to process information at a superman rate, he could likely do the same for his legs. The process would be slower, but not by much.

Originally posted by Azronger
His heavy breathing is the result of fear, not exhaustion, lol. And unless Sidious was actively draining his powers, then it doesn't matter who Maul was fighting - it was still a five-minute duel.

And of course it matters, Maul is going to have to expend far more energy keeping up with Palpatine's strength and speed that anyone else, even Savage was left seriously fatigued after a brief bout with him. And Maul was ragdolled on top of this.

Maul us going to overcome the pain of Dooku's Force Lightning? Forgive my disbelief:

So what you're saying is that Dooku can't shoot lightning at all, since the blast he unleashed at Ventress was instantanous. That's just blatantly false.

And far as I know, Ventress' injuries were inflicted by Dooku's lightning.

As for Ventress' injuries, yes she had suffered some serious ones after being in a ship crash and having a building collapsed on her.

It certainly appears to be more destructive than Dooku's usual blasts aimed at multiple people. Looks like a storm to me.

The only time I've seen Maul fight back against Force lightning was against Mighella. If you believe that to be of any significance, then start proving her lightning can match Dooku's in how painful it is.

And even if we assume he'll be fighting back (which I doubt), he certainly won't be resisting a combination of Force lightning and Telekinesis. Dooku has proven himself an avid user of this combo, and with solely TK, has KO'd Obi-Wan, who has similar pain resistance to Maul. Maul isn't remaining conscious after being weakened by lightning and then smashed against the wall.

And overlooking the fact that Kenobi's pain resistance does not compare to Maul's in the slightest, it was not pain that KO'ed Kenobi but trauma, a level of which Dooku is not capable of inflicting on a considerably more powerful opponent.

More to the point Dooku's TK/Force lighting combo also failed to put down Savage:

In fact, even Dooku and Ventress using "all the power" they possessed was only enough to put an enraged Savage down for a few seconds.

So no, I'm afraid you're bullshitting. There's a surprise.

I doubt Maul could dodge Dooku, who has demonstrated the ability to launch bolts in all directions at once:

And even make a Force Maelstrom:

He saw the blue shimmersilk move like a breeze as Zan Arbor took advantage of the distraction to dash for the entrance. Blue Force-lightning erupted in the darkness, a barrier shielding her from the others, giving her space to run.

-Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

I'm also failing to see how that's a Force maelstrom, you'll have to elaborate.

Even if Maul somehow dodges (which I doubt), so what? He's only prolonging the inevitable.

And deflect them with a Barrier? Lmao. I've asked twice in this thread to show me a defensive Force feat from Maul, and no one has done so.

That's just a bonus for Vos, then. Doesn't have anything to do with Maul, though.

What blows are you talking about? This is a Force-only fight, no unarmed combat. And as far as TK or lightning is concerned:

Maul isn't going to do jack shit.

Or alternatively by injuring him with debris. Dooku's ability to deflect his own lightning and some sand notwithstanding.

Dooku will most certainly dominate Maul. This is an accurate depiction of the "fight" between these two:

Originally posted by Azronger
I never even suggested it in the first place, it was merely a remark on how you reduced Maul's already slim chances of resisting Dooku's telekinetic influence to zero.

You missed the point of my post. The point being that Kenobi was knocked out by it, not that he was ragdolled. Even if Dooku isn't ragdolling Maul (which I doubt he isn't), he could still knock him out with a simple Force Push - which is easier to do mid-combat than Grip - relatively easily, the result being this:

On the other hand Maul is far more powerful than Kenobi, and Dooku is far less powerful than Sidious. But I guess you forgot that.

Copied from the other thread:

- Savage was hit by Dooku's Lightning no less than 5 times, and he still got up each time
- Savage choked and ragdolled Dooku and Ventress at the same time.
- He pushed back Anakin and Kenobi at the same time in sabers, and knocked them on their asses when he lashed out with the Force.
- Maul casually disarmed savage in 2 seconds and then literally stepped on his head
- Savage to Maul: "I'm not like you, I never was..."

But wait, there's more! Having just proved that Maul is by far Dooku's superior in matters of dueling, I will now prove he's superior in the Force as well:

- Sidious holo-choked Dooku from half a galaxy away.
- he didn't do the same to Maul in SOD despite having the chance(and reason) multiple times.

Ergo Sidious can't assert his dominance over Maul as easily as he can with Dooku. Because Maul is stronger in the Force.

Since I'm a gentleman I'm not even going to mention the deleted TCW scene where Maul Force pushes Sidious and pins him to the wall, a feat which in the entire mythos only Yoda manages to (partially) replicate.

And speaking of Yoda, here's the cherry on top:

- Yoda immediately sensed Maul's resurrection in the Force and was very disturbed.
- Dooku himself also sensed it and was obviously shaken, going so far as to call it "something sinister".

In contrast, Dooku had fallen to the Dark side a decade prior to AOTC in all that time none of the Jedi ever sensed it, not even his master Yoda, to whom he presumably had a bond.

In other words Yoda immediately senses and is disturbed by Maul's presence in the Force despite not even having met him, but doesn't even get a whiff of Dooku falling to the Dark side and growing in power despite having known him for decades.

That's because Maul is much stronger in the Force and in the Dark side.

To conclude:

Maul speaking about Dooku: " ... the Sith pretender Dooku..."
Dooku speaking about Maul: "... your powers will rival that of the great Sith Lord Darth Maul."

Sounds about right.

BTW here is the delete scene I mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxrMEQlTMvs

Who else besides Maul has ever done that to Sidious?