Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74&t=5m20s
Is that now the level of debating you're operating on? Read Shadow Conspiracy and you'll have your answer.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Damn, DD9 still thinks his shit TCW analysis worth more than a pile of vomit?
Well since you have produced nothing against anything I put forward, it actually is. You can insult me (or my argumentation) whenever you want but as long as you have nothing to back that up, you're just an angry kid kicking around without cuasing any damage.
Allright let's try this again, I'll start from their fights in the Clone Wars and work my way up from there. First there is the fight on the Turtle Tanker in the finale of Season 4, in the beginning we see Obi-Wan actually has the advantage, he's anticipating Maul's movements and controlling the fight until the point that he retrieves his lightsaber. From then on they trade blows for a second and Maul kicks Obi-Wan, who then seeks out higher ground, so far so good right? What's actually important from this scene is that while Obi-Wan had the earlier advantage (e.g. kicking Maul against the boxes around them), Maul always came back without any lasting injuries, contrary to Obi-Wan who found it necessary to seek out higher ground after Maul took the edge in the fight again. If anyone's going to come out on top, it was Maul. Sure you can put this on Obi-Wan's apparent injuries in the beginning of the fight (Maul & Savage beating him up) but while there is no evidence or indication for the extent of his injuries, and even if they actually hindered him, we do have the episode guide saying this:
"Maul has been looking forward to killing Kenobi for years, and so he intends to relish his vengeance. but his exquisite moment is cut short by the cackles of Asajj Ventress, who lurks in the shadows of the hold."
"Kenobi and Ventress are overwhelmed by the raw power of Maul and Opress."
The first quote actually indicates that Kenobi did not nearly receive the beating (and suffering) Maul intended and so limiting the extent of his injuries while the second quote straight out confirms Maul's superiority to Obi-Wan.
Secondly Maul and Obi-Wan fought on Florrum in the Season 5 premiere. This fight proceeds with both Brother engaging Obi-Wan & Adi on the rocks above Hondo's base. Maul & Obi-Wan start out by clashing blades a couple times, Obi-Wan slowly giving ground, and then both Jedi decide to run away. Obi-Wan then proceeds to give ground and even seeks out higher ground again, where they continue their duel. Shortly after that the fight is interrupted by Adi's death and Obi-Wan retreats in Hondo's base. What's important from this fight is that Obi-Wan is immediately giving ground and retreating, things most people attribute to Obi-Wan's defensive approach (which in general brings forward the problem that there is no way to seperate Obi-Wan being pushed back and him using Soresu). However, lucky for me, Obi-Wan's fighting style in TCW is quite different then the one he utilizes in Revenge of the Sith. In all his fights, from Grievous to Vizla, he took on a normal approach, not nearly a defensive one, and in general going toe-to-toe with his opponents while in this case he's retreating (and giving ground) almost directly when the fight starts. So I think that the picture is pretty clear right? A fighter who normally goes toe-to-toe with his opponents (or even can be aggresive if necessary -> Grievous on Saleucami) is being pushed back to the point he has to retreat. Maul is the clear victor in this example with as addition the fact that there are no vague circumstances which people can rely on to explain his defeat.
To summarize everything, in both fights in TCW Maul's shown he's superior to Obi-Wan as a duelist and overall combatant. Of course this is RotS Obi-Wan we're using and not his TCW incarnation, however besides that he adapts a more defensive approach in RotS, ther is nothing to suggest that he grew noticeably. Even if we're assuming Obi-Wan did grow in the end of the CW, the idea that he grew more then Maul, who like Obi-Wan has been active during the entire end of TCW and possesses more talent, potential and power then him, is very unlikely. Maul's shown to be his superior in every area over and over again.
Oh yeah, before anyone responds to any of my arguments, begin with explaining why you actually think Obi-Wan is better.
Kenobi's a better duelist - especially as of ROTS
He's caught up on Force power - Stalemating a hindered Anakin
He sent Maul and his brother running in TCW even when his back was against the wall.
Maul had no reason to retreat on florrum. He din't know that his own hive of scum and villainy would turn on him. He retreated because he knew that without significant backup, he couldn't win.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Kenobi's a better duelist - especially as of ROTS
He's caught up on Force power - Stalemating a hindered Anakin
He sent Maul and his brother running in TCW even when his back was against the wall.Maul had no reason to retreat on florrum. He din't know that his own hive of scum and villainy would turn on him. He retreated because he knew that without significant backup, he couldn't win.
Obi-Wan goes from being outmatched to being superior in a span of months? Not to mention that Maul would logically grow as well in the end of TCW and possibly more since he's more powerul and has actually accolades to back up his power growth contrary to Obi-Wan.
Statlemating a hindered Anakin is not something what is going to put him above Maul, especially since Maul has ragdolled Obi-Wan numerous times in TCW and should have grown in power as well near RotS.
Shadow Conspiracy notes that Obi-Wan managed to hold is own on Florrum because of multiple reasons (the brothers hindering each other, Obi-Wan's sudden aggresiveness, ...) and Savage lost his arm, which is why Maul retreated. Obi-Wan actually had no reason to run away on Florrum when Adi was still alive, despite well being outmatched of course.
Originally posted by MythLord
By getting floored by him and his blind master?Face it, at this rate, Maul's low showings are becoming more consistent than his high showings... He is no longer the badass he once was.
Yeah, by letting Ezra give into his anger.
The thing is, his 'low showings' can be explained, both in Kanan's and Ezra's case, so they aren't low showings. I really expected more from you Wollf.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Yeah, by letting Ezra give into his anger.The thing is, his 'low showings' can be explained, both in Kanan's and Ezra's case, so they aren't low showings. I really expected more from you Wollf.
And then letting Ezra floor him? I'm sure Sidious, Vader or Dooku let their apprentices floor them in a fit of rage just cuz... Oh no wait; Vader couldn't touch Sidious, Dooku one-shotted Asajj, and Vader brutalized Marek in early spars...
An explanation for why Maul is scared sh!tless to engage Kanan in combat, please.
But, if you want, I'll gladly look at Maul's high showings and still argue his inferiority to prime Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by MythLordWasn't Dooku and Asajj's first duel at least a minute?
And then letting Ezra floor him? I'm sure Sidious, Vader or Dooku let their apprentices floor them in a fit of rage just cuz... Oh no wait; Vader couldn't touch Sidious, Dooku one-shotted Asajj, and Vader brutalized Marek in early spars...An explanation for why Maul is scared sh!tless to engage Kanan in combat, please.
But, if you want, I'll gladly look at Maul's high showings and still argue his inferiority to prime Obi-Wan.