Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Darth Maul

Started by cs_zoltan5 pages
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
The Outer Rim Sieges aren't canon, so there goes your point.

Who the **** cares?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Obi-Wan never stomped Grievous in RotS, yes he cut off two of his hands but still had to resort to the Force to make him retreat. The (canon) Kanan comic has actually proved the exact opposite, Depa also (much like Obi-Wan) cut off two of Grievous hands but was still defeated afterwards.

Yeah he did, the moment he stopped being passive he stomped Grievous:

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. —slice—
The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it.
Grievous paused, eyes pulsing wide, then drawing narrow. He lifted his maimed hand and stared at the white-hot stumps that held now only half a useless lightsaber.
Obi-Wan smiled at him.
Grievous lunged.
Obi-Wan parried.
Pieces of lightsabers bounced on the durasteel deck.
Grievous looked down at the blade-sliced hunks of metal that were all he had left in his hands, then up at Obi-Wan's shining sky-colored blade, then down at his hands again, and then he seemed to suddenly remember that he had an urgent appointment somewhere else.
Anywhere else.

--Revenge of the Sith

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
RotS JR novel never said Obi-Wan could break out of Dooku's grip.

It was heavily implied.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
A slight improvement, sure.

Being not offensive in normal scenarios doesn't mean you're a defensive fighter either and I never claimed that Obi-Wan is an aggresive fighter to begin with, only that he isn't a defensive one (and apparently not an offensive one either) in TCW. My point still kind of stands, there is no reason for Obi-Wan to adopt a different fighting style against Maul (contrary to the rest of his TCW duels) besides that he was forced to do it, which would imply Maul is better (much how Ahsoka was put on a defensive in Rebels against Vader).

Oh yeah, I think that you forgot to answer my first question, how do you seperate Obi-Wan applying Soresu and him being pushed back (effectively being on the losing side)?

As I said, your interpretations of TCW animations doesn't hold in Legends. Shadow Conspiracy sticks to the norm of Obi-Wan being a defensive fighter, hence why his switch to an aggressive style was one of the factors that caught the brothers off guard.

Where do I draw the line towards Soresu and losing? Well, that depends. Given Obi-Wan's mastery of lightsaber combat is right up there with the best, it's safe to say that if he's losing, it's more to do with people penetrating his defenses than him being driven back.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The first part of this statement is ignorant of Kenobi and Maul's antagonism, the second is ignorant of learning curves and accelerations of growth. Just look at the very contrasting environments they were bread in. Maul was trained to the apex of his career with many observers stating he couldn't exceed beyond that point - comments from both Qui Gon and his master Darth Sidious. He had already had his fair share of victories and training that threatened his life. Kenobi on the other hand, was born of the garden variety diplomacy learned in the Jedi order and only really improves his skills during the War. Months, sometimes weeks can see drastic improvements in fighting. Just look at Savage Opress, Quinlan Vos or Darth Vader for example. The point is that when new information, new fights, new skills become part of the lore, the old material is anachronous. No longer relevant to how characters are judged. You won't tell me that Quinlan Vos gets owned by Cad Bane after his performance in Dark Disciple?

You are basing yourself on Qui-Gon's comment, someone who has barely any knowledge on Maul? Your point is actually contradicted by Shadow Conspiracy which litteraly claims that Maul's become more powerful over the course of TCW. I do like how you perphrase it though, enjoyable to read.

It is? Or is this kind of logic is what's been plaguing the high expectations for Maul in Rebels? The assumption that Maul is competent enough to achieve mastery of the Force on his own accord, without an instructor. Really, the difference between himself in TPM and later incarnations is that he's become older, but perhaps not wiser. He's no longer accepted by the most powerful Sith Lord and the benefits that come with studying under him.

Again, Shadow Conspiracy supports the evidence that he's become more powerful by everything he did in TCW, without a master. Obi-Wan's growth between S5 and RotS would come from him fighting in the war but Maul himself also fought in this war to the very end (The Siege of Mandalore is at the same time as RotS).


There is little to nothing that suggesting Maul is more powerful than Obi Wan, and the discrepancy in their feats favours the latter, not the former.

He's dominated him in the Force multiple times but I will answer that in one of my following responses.


Given the amount of hype thrown in Anakin's relative direction, I'd say it does. When you start taking a critical comparison of feats, then you definitely someone that outclasses Maul, perhaps multiple times over.

Sure, Anakin is better as Maul but the former was also in a hindered state when fighting (and statlemating) Obi-Wan.


I'd like to see your definition of 'ragdoll'. Because if Maul could incapacitate Kenobi in the same fashion that Dooku had, he wouldn't be pining for the nearest cybernetic surgeon with his dismembered brother and could spare the extra two seconds it takes to finish the job. So far, Maul's account of rag dolling is this:

- Choking him one occasion while amped by rage
- Force gripping Kenobi when he barely had the energy to stand, much less project a defensive barrier
- Catching Kenobi in a Force grip while the latter was distracted by his brother, but not being able to maintain that grip for more than two seconds

- When was he amplified by rage? Not to mention that he's a Sith (and Dark Side user) who obviously draws power from his darker emotions like rage. There is nothing circumstantial about him choking out Obi-Wan in the comic.
- He actually choked him but I don't use that as a base of my argumentation.
- He wasn't destracted by Savage, he just kicked him and turned to face Maul. Maul then gripped him and threw him against the wall, doesn't mean that he couldn't keep it up for much longer.


Where does it state they were hindering each other? That's laughable, Kenobi alone is more than a match for Maul, given that he can literally disarm his Brother, while having to defend himself against Maul at the same time. That you have to excuse that by stating the two brothers couldn't handle Kenobi's sudden aggressiveness is equally laughable. One can just say that Kenobi was deviating from his favourite fighting form and still beat the Brothers.

I don't make this up, the novel lists it as arguments why Obi-Wan is holding his own against the brothers. IIRC it even says that Obi-Wan would be outmached on open field.


Proof? Lightsaber wounds cauterize themselves, So Savage isn't going to die from bloodloss. Realistically he could remain wounded indefinitely while Maul continues to fight Kenobi. So there must be another reason why he retreated, perhaps because he knew he couldn't win?

Because Savage was obviously in pain? He collapses to the ground and later on in the ship almost faints. Maul blasted Obi-Wan across the cave, he could definitely win.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As I said, your interpretations of TCW animations doesn't hold in Legends. Shadow Conspiracy sticks to the norm of Obi-Wan being a defensive fighter, hence why his switch to an aggressive style was one of the factors that caught the brothers off guard.

Where do I draw the line towards Soresu and losing? Well, that depends. Given Obi-Wan's mastery of lightsaber combat is right up there with the best, it's safe to say that if he's losing, it's more to do with people penetrating his defenses than him being driven back.

It doens't matter that it isn't true in Legends, we're using Canon. Shadow Conspiracy never lists Obi-Wan as a defensive fighter though, just not an offensive one.

So if you aren't penetrating Obi-Wan's defenses immediately then your dead-even? It's kind of an easy excuse to just say Obi-Wan is fighting defensively when he could very well be losing. In the end, TCW has never depicted Obi-Wan as defensive, so why he suddenly is exactly that against Maul can only mean one thing, he's losing.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
It doens't matter that it isn't true in Legends, we're using Canon. Shadow Conspiracy never lists Obi-Wan as a defensive fighter though, just not an offensive one.

So if you aren't penetrating Obi-Wan's defenses immediately then your dead-even? It's kind of an easy excuse to just say Obi-Wan is fighting defensively when he could very well be losing. In the end, TCW has never depicted Obi-Wan as defensive, so why he suddenly is exactly that against Maul can only mean one thing, he's losing.

We're not using Canon. We're using composite. And this is the only explicit definition on it.

I didn't say anything about immediately penetrating his defenses. Maul had ample time. As I said, your interpretation of TCW's animations doesn't surpass the novel's writing. Obi-Wan was a defensive fighter, and using aggressive attacks wasn't his MO in fights against Maul, hence why the latter was surprised when he did.

Just accept it and move on.

The Quote button doesn't work properly so I respond like this.

- That means it can't be used to attribute Obi-Wan's supposed growth between S6 and RotS.

- Again, Depa performed likewise against Grievous but got defeated afterwards. In the movie, Grievous continues to attack Obi-Wan, even after losing two hands so apparently he's still optimistic about it.

- No, it only says that Obi-Wan wasn't fast enough to gather any kind of counter attack, if Obi-Wan could effectively counter Dooku's attack is left in the open. Of course he's going to gather a counter-attack, most Force users do, but that doesn't mean that Dooku couldn't penetrate his defenses either way.

Dooku did penetrate his defenses, it's just a question of whether he simply tore through them or if he exploited a momentary lapse in Obi-Wan's Force defenses, which, according to the Choke apologists, Obi-Wan does a lot.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We're not using Canon. We're using composite. And this is the only explicit definition on it.

I didn't say anything about immediately penetrating his defenses. Maul had ample time. As I said, your interpretation of TCW's animations doesn't surpass the novel's writing. Obi-Wan was a defensive fighter, and using aggressive attacks wasn't his MO in fights against Maul, hence why the latter was surprised when he did.

Just accept it and move on.

We are debating Obi-Wan's form in their TCW duels, Legends has nothing to do with it.

Again, the novel never depicts Obi-Wan as defensive, just not an offensive one.

He didn't fight defensively against Grievous on Kamino, he didn't fight defensively against Grievous on Saleucami, he didn't fight defensively against Vizla and he didn't fight defensively against Maul on the Turtle Tanker (the earlier part of the fight at least) -> He's a defenisve fighter. Really, way to go Nova.

Lmao @ DD9 deciding what sources we can use when he's losing.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
We are debating Obi-Wan's form in their TCW duels, Legends has nothing to do with it.

Again, the novel never depicts Obi-Wan as defensive, just not an offensive one.

He didn't fight defensively against Grievous on Kamino, he didn't fight defensively against Grievous on Saleucami, he didn't fight defensively against Vizla and he didn't fight defensively against Maul on the Turtle Tanker (the earlier part of the fight at least) -> He's a defenisve fighter. Really, way to go Nova.

TCW is also part of Legends, and Shadow Conspiracy is exclusively Legends 😬

I don't have the novel on-hand, so I can't comment on whether or not it explicitly mentions him being defensive, but one would assume that it's following the Legends timeline. Either way, with regard to Legends, my point stands. Obi-Wan's a defensive fighter and a presumable equal of Maul.

I'm not going to entertain a discussion on this for Canon, since some of my other evidence doesn't function anyway. The only thing we're worrying about is what takes precedence for composite. And given how Legends entirely establishes Obi-Wan as a defensive fighter, not to mention some sources in Canon (with Filoni's animations being the only outlier - surprise), I'd imagine that Obi-Wan's defensive style is the way to go and that he's about equal with Maul. As I said, the gap is negligible anyway. Arguing that Maul is better because Obi-Wan fought defensively is just stretching.

Originally posted by SunRazer
TCW is also part of Legends, and Shadow Conspiracy is exclusively Legends 😬

I don't have the novel on-hand, so I can't comment on whether or not it explicitly mentions him being defensive, but one would assume that it's following the Legends timeline. Either way, with regard to Legends, my point stands. Obi-Wan's a defensive fighter and a presumable equal of Maul.

I'm not going to entertain a discussion on this for Canon, since some of my other evidence doesn't function anyway. The only thing we're worrying about is what takes precedence for composite. And given how Legends entirely establishes Obi-Wan as a defensive fighter, not to mention some sources in Canon (with Filoni's animations being the only outlier - surprise), I'd imagine that Obi-Wan's defensive style is the way to go and that he's about equal with Maul. As I said, the gap is negligible anyway. Arguing that Maul is better because Obi-Wan fought defensively is just stretching.

You're honestly comparing a Legends source like (for example) LoE with Shadow Conspiracy (which is based on Canon)?

You're actually saying that you have no evidence that it follows the rest of Legends rather then the Canon TCW which it's based on.

But if you're using Obi-Wan's Legends fighting style then that couldn't possibly apply to their duels in TCW (since it's canon).

I actually think that we aren't going to agree on this, I'm not going to mix Legends and Canon, and I'm just quite tired of debating 4 guys at once.

TCW is, regrettably, Legends as well. The Canon split occurred well after this.

If you don't want to merge the continuities, even better. My point stands for Legends. For Canon, I couldn't care less. Run wild with your conclusions - I'm not going to indulge them today.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Maul is scared to engage Kanan? Oh please Wollf...
Oh please Wollf...
Wollf
🙂

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
You are basing yourself on Qui-Gon's comment, someone who has barely any knowledge on Maul? Your point is actually contradicted by Shadow Conspiracy which litteraly claims that Maul's become more powerful over the course of TCW. I do like how you perphrase it though, enjoyable to read.

Why shouldn't we take Qui Gon's statement into literal regard? Through the Force, he rightfully served as a device who first discovered the chosen one. He was deeply attuned to the Living Force which enabled him to correctly guess sequences Maul would use in battle - Darth Maul Journals, and he managed to summarise Maul's life very well in a few moments of their fight. Likewise, Sidious also commented that the cadence of Maul's tutelage came before his final send off on Naboo.

Again, Shadow Conspiracy supports the evidence that he's become more powerful by everything he did in TCW, without a master.

Shadow Conspiracy is written in the perspective of characters mentioned in the book, in this case, it would be Darth Maul. It should not be treated as an omniscient source indiscriminative to the limitations of it's writing, more to the point that each passage is characterized from the person commenting. In this case, Maul having grandeur self perceptions of how languishing on Lothor Minor affected his abilties, doesn't have to be taken with literal regard. We know that Maul also thought he would be the eventual successor to Palpatine, which was very far away from Palaptine's true intentions.

Obi-Wan's growth between S5 and RotS would come from him fighting in the war but Maul himself also fought in this war to the very end (The Siege of Mandalore is at the same time as RotS)

As I said before, Obi Wan would experience much higher rates of growth than Maul under these circumstances. The Clone Wars doesn't offer alternative action to the types of adventures Maul faced in his teens. He's already fought through hordes of thugs, anomalies such as the Vong, as well as Jedi and their apprentices - Anoon Bondara and Darhsa Assant. He doesn't have much to gain, if at all. The difference between their lifestyles could be compared to an Israelis combat trainee faced with an aristocrat swilling wine from five star hotel rooms. Kenobi had to adapt to the circumstances, and the finished product is someone who can drive Maul's cowardice packing with his dismembered brother in arm. It simply means that Kenobi is the more resourceful fighter and isn't as incompetent as someone who gets parred by multiple Padawans... is that so hard to believe?

Sure, Anakin is better as Maul but the former was also in a hindered state when fighting (and statlemating) Obi-Wan.

Then you have to prove to me that Maul can fight on par with a hindered Anakin, and eventually beat him. So far his track record of battles hasn't allowed him to defeat anyone near that level.

- When was he amplified by rage? Not to mention that he's a Sith (and Dark Side user) who obviously draws power from his darker emotions like rage. There is nothing circumstantial about him choking out Obi-Wan in the comic.
- He actually choked him but I don't use that as a base of my argumentation.
- He wasn't distracted by Savage, he just kicked him and turned to face Maul. Maul then gripped him and threw him against the wall, doesn't mean that he couldn't keep it up for much longer.

1) There are times when that rage takes precedent and Sith find themselves performing extraordinarily outside of their capacities. Yes, I'm suggesting that this was one of those times where Maul was extra specially angry at the person he blames for turning his life upside down. If he could just Force choke Kenobi on any occasion, the the former should have been killed on Florumm, it wouldn't have taken more than a minute to crush his capillaries.

2) As I said before, on that occasion, Obi Wan couldn't even muster then energy to stand up correctly, much less project a reliable Force defence

3) It absolutely does. Why drag out the battle when you can maintain a prolonged grip over your adversary? Giving you enough time to simply draw him to your blade or let your murderous brother slay him in the moment. He has nothing to gain by releasing that grip, other than it relieving him from strain, which suggests he could not maintain it. This is simply a case of Kenobi being caught off guard and his opponent not powerful enough to keep him there.

I don't make this up, the novel lists it as arguments why Obi-Wan is holding his own against the brothers. IIRC it even says that Obi-Wan would be outmached on open field.

The Novel as characterised from the perspective of Maul gives rationalisations to why they couldn't win. Their inability to adapt to Kenobi fighting aggressively is just that, and the environment restricts the vantage and positioning of everyone involved. One can just day that Obi Wan prevailed under negative circumstances, using a form he doesn't favor.

Because Savage was obviously in pain? He collapses to the ground and later on in the ship almost faints.

Your point? The pain and shock clearly wasn't enough to send him under. In fact, it didn't seem to affect him at all when they where running away from Hondo's reclaimed group of misfits. That doesn't excuse Maul's decision to personally retreat, meaning that there must be another - he doesn't want to be cut in half again perhaps?

Maul isn't accurate source on his own capabilities Ziggy? Kek. Well maybe your boy Obi-Wan will suffice:

Taken from Shadow Conspiracy

Obi-Wan didn't know where the Sith had spent the long years since he'd tumbled down the shaft of the Theed generator core, and he couldn't imagine what Maul had been doing. But whatever it was, Maul was stronger in the Force than he'd been [...]

Fair enough, i didn't know where the source came from. Still, Maul seems to get less competent with time to the point where even fodder tier's like Ashoka can compete. A pretty strong indication that he's gone down hill, or that he was never on top of the hill to begin with.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
even fodder tier's like Ashoka can compete.
Lmao.

Also in regards to Maul's decision to retreat on Florrum, it was a calculated risk assessment in which he evidently prioritised the integrity of his plan over killing Kenobi:

Savage howled in agony, retreating towards Maul as his brother shoved Obi-Wan backward with a blast of Force power. Maul stared at Obi-Wan, eyes blazing, the hatred boiling inside him. But then he regained control of his emotions and shut off the surge of animal rage. He had bigger plans now than merely revenge, and settling the score with Kenobi could wait.
Not because he was afraid of the guy he'd just TKO'ed. Lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
[B]Lmao.

Yep. Anyone who can't stomp Rebels Maul within four seconds of fighting should be classed as a laughing stock.

Also in regards to Maul's decision to retreat on Florrum, it was a calculated risk assessment in which he evidently prioritised the integrity of his plan over killing Kenobi.

Indeed. He didn't want to die. Your point? Maul wanting to settle the score later doesn't mean he wants to fight him again. We know of course, how Maul deals with characters that are too strong for him - click

Not because he was afraid of the guy he'd just TKO'ed. Lol

Maul never TKO'd Kenobi in that match. You might know that if you started watching professional fights instead of parading on gay pride marches.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Yep. Anyone who can't stomp Rebels Maul within four seconds of fighting should be classed as a laughing stock.
What impressive circular logic. Got anything more substantial?
Indeed. He didn't want to die. Your point? Maul wanting to settle the score later doesn't have to mean he wants to fight him again. We know of course, how Maul deals with characters that are too strong for him - click
Uh-huh, my point dear is that Maul's intent to kill Kenobi at that moment is obvious, however he restrains himself for the sake of his wider schemes.

Now to put that into greater contexts for those who failed to pick up on them while watching the episode. At the beginning of which are told that the Jedi are "too many" for Maul and Savage to stand against alone, later, when the Jedi find them on Florrum Maul bemoans that "it's too soon, my plan isn't finished yet", then to add insult to injury his brother ends up losing an arm, making them further ill equipped to stand against the looming Jedi threat.

In other words even if Maul had continued to fight and succeeded in killing Kenobi, he'd remain left with an armless brother, an incomplete power base (as well as insufficient man power to secure it) and the inevitable deployment of more Jedi. Under those circumstances retreat was a smart decision.

Maul never TKO'd Kenobi in that match. You might know if you started watching professional fights instead of parading on gay pride marches.
Homophobic slurs only make you look less intelligent dear, as hard it may be to believe that is still possible. On the other hand:

I'd stick to watching WWE, yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What impressive circular logic. Got anything more substantial?

Other than telling you to accept the ground realities of Maul?

Uh-huh, my point dear is that Maul's intent to kill Kenobi at that moment is obvious

So it's a concession?

however he restrains himself for the sake of his wider schemes.

And why does he refrain himself for the sake of wider schemes? Perhaps because those wider scheme's might need a living sentient being to act them out, rather than a headless body left to decompose on a backwater planet? Of course, running away from Obi Wan is sensible, Maul has seen what Kenobi can do to Savage with his brother aiding him, he's also seen what a younger Kenobi can do to Maul by virtue of superior speed - click

Now to put that into greater contexts for those who failed to pick up on them while watching the episode. At the beginning of which are told that the Jedi are "too many" for Maul and Savage to stand against alone

So you admit that the fighting Force of Gaila and Kenobi is too much Force Maul? In which case, concession accepted. Or are you making a general statement in regard to the Jedi order, and the type of numbers they could summon for a mission on the scale of the Geonosis invasion, which is completely absent from the episode altogether?

later, when the Jedi find them on Florrum Maul bemoans that "it's too soon, my plan isn't finished yet",

And yet, they still chase after Kenobi, in your opinion, needlessly.

then to add insult to injury his brother ends up losing an arm, making them further ill equipped to stand against the looming Jedi threat.

You mean the non existent threat that doesn't show up to aid Kenobi?

In other words even if Maul had continued to fight and succeeded in killing Kenobi, he'd remain left with an armless brother, an incomplete power base (as well as insufficient man power to secure it) and the inevitable deployment of more Jedi. Under those circumstances retreat was a smart decision.

That's just pure conjecture, there's nothing indicating that more Jedi were about to be deployed. Leaving Kenobi alive only means he can relay more information to council once he returns, safe and healthily. And this totally contradicts the Idea that Maul can simply ragdoll Obi Wan whenever he wants.

Homophobic slurs only make you look less intelligent dear

That's a conversation for another day. Also.., I don't see what's homophobic about my comment? Did I say gays were bad or should be executed as per the Koran? Nope, I said that if you spent less time getting a hard on every time you grabbed your dick to piss, and learned what the definition of a TKO is, you might understand why it doesn't fit the description of what Maul did to Kenobi.

On the other hand:

A technical knockout occurs when the referee determines that one of the fighters cannot continue the fight, which is not the same as a fighter getting up only moments later to engage in a Force sprint.

All this proves is that Maul can't be compared to real powerhouses who leave Kenobi out cold after a Force push. click me