Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Well since you have produced nothing against anything I put forward, it actually is. You can insult me (or my argumentation) whenever you want but as long as you have nothing to back that up, you're just an angry kid kicking around without cuasing any damage.
Actually I have, not my fault that you can't comprehend simple concepts despite repeated attemps of explanations. Which gets tedious after a while.
Originally posted by MythLord
And then letting Ezra floor him? I'm sure Sidious, Vader or Dooku let their apprentices floor them in a fit of rage just cuz... Oh no wait; Vader couldn't touch Sidious, Dooku one-shotted Asajj, and Vader brutalized Marek in early spars...An explanation for why Maul is scared sh!tless to engage Kanan in combat, please.
But, if you want, I'll gladly look at Maul's high showings and still argue his inferiority to prime Obi-Wan.
The things is, Ezra isn't Maul's apprentice yet, he's still a Light Side user so he still has to fall to the Dark Side. Not to mention that Maul can ragdoll the 7th Sister, who herself is still more powerful then Ezra.
Maul is scared to engage Kanan? Oh please Wollf...
You may very well try that, I wish you good luck since Maul's come out on top before (TCW) so you'll need it.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Actually I have, not my fault that you can't comprehend simple concepts despite repeated attemps of explanations. Which gets tedious after a while.
You mean when you were claiming that Obi-Wan taking two steps back = using Soresu? Yeah, really I'm willing to debate when you actually use evidence but until then I actually got better things to do.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, the Obi-Wan supporters have a point. TCW does have a liking for letting Obi-Wan get choked by circumstance. But you'd have to admit, Obi-Wan gets choked by circumstance a lot. What, five or six times in TCW, plus once in RotS by Dooku? That sounds a little... unreasonable.
What's your opinion on this fight?
A near-enough stalemate in sabers. Taking into account that this Obi-Wan > S5 TCW Obi-Wan and assuming that Maul and Obi-Wan were dead-even in TCW (which they might not be, since Soresu can minimize any existing disparity), then Obi-Wan might take the slightest of leads.
Maul takes Force and all-out, though.
Originally posted by SunRazer
A near-enough stalemate in sabers. Taking into account that this Obi-Wan > S5 TCW Obi-Wan and assuming that Maul and Obi-Wan were dead-even in TCW (which they might not be, since Soresu can minimize any existing disparity), then Obi-Wan might take the slightest of leads.Maul takes Force and all-out, though.
But if Obi-Wan > S5 Obi-Wan (is there any evidence for this?) how is that enough for him to transcend Maul? And I don't quite understand were this "dead-even in sabers" comes from, Obi-Wan was pushed back in both fights and in both cases opted to retreat, that hardly seems like he's dead-even.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Pretty sure you could apply one of those "improved over the war" quotes to this.Obi-Wan moving back is part of how he fights. Although granted, TCW's approach to characters and their lightsaber forms is incredibly half-baked, so... eh.
Yeah, 'over the war' is taking into account the entire Clone Wars, we're talking about the very last part of it (e.g. If his growth is noticeable over the CW then his growth in the last part is only going to be a small part of 'noticeable' if you know what I mean). I doubt that this 'improvement' is enough to suddenly be better then Maul.
First, how do you make the difference then between Obi-Wan applying Soresu and him effectively being pushed back? Secondly, like you said, TCW depicts Obi-Wan's fighting style differently then the movies, so why would Obi-Wan go toe-to-toe with Grievous (not showing any kind of defensive approach) and yet do this against Maul?
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
You mean when you were claiming that Obi-Wan taking two steps back = using Soresu? Yeah, really I'm willing to debate when you actually use evidence but until then I actually got better things to do.
It was your idea that Kenobi never, ever gives ground. When someone indulges a retard he has to get his hands dirty.
Oh, btw:
In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way.
--Revenge of the Sith
That's still enough for an improvement, however slight.
Because even your beloved Shadow Conspiracy makes note that Obi-Wan's sudden transition to an offensive Ataru surprised Maul/Savage, which indicates that they were used to him fighting defensively. Which is, of course, what he's always done against Maul, except when he was goaded aboard the Turtle Tanker and that "focus" incident on Florrum.
TCW left out the most intense, most brutal part of the war, the Outer Rim Sieges. Kenobi and Anakin was so busy fighting they couldn't even go back to Coruscant for several months. In this time period Anakin grew vastly in power. Obviously Kenobi doesn't have Anakin's potential, but they were doing the same thing this time so a proportional power growth is all but guaranteed.
If you want actual examples of his growth, he went from Grievous relative equal during TCW to stomping him in RotS, he went from circumstantially being ragdolled by Maul to likely being able to break out of Dooku's choke.
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's still enough for an improvement, however slight.Because even your beloved Shadow Conspiracy makes note that Obi-Wan's sudden transition to an offensive Ataru surprised Maul/Savage, which indicates that they were used to him fighting defensively. Which is, of course, what he's always done against Maul, except when he was goaded aboard the Turtle Tanker and that "focus" incident on Florrum.
A slight improvement, sure.
Being not offensive in normal scenarios doesn't mean you're a defensive fighter either and I never claimed that Obi-Wan is an aggresive fighter to begin with, only that he isn't a defensive one (and apparently not an offensive one either) in TCW. My point still kind of stands, there is no reason for Obi-Wan to adopt a different fighting style against Maul (contrary to the rest of his TCW duels) besides that he was forced to do it, which would imply Maul is better (much how Ahsoka was put on a defensive in Rebels against Vader).
Oh yeah, I think that you forgot to answer my first question, how do you seperate Obi-Wan applying Soresu and him being pushed back (effectively being on the losing side)?
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
TCW left out the most intense, most brutal part of the war, the Outer Rim Sieges. Kenobi and Anakin was so busy fighting they couldn't even go back to Coruscant for several months. In this time period Anakin grew vastly in power. Obviously Kenobi doesn't have Anakin's potential, but they were doing the same thing this time so a proportional power growth is all but guaranteed.If you want actual examples of his growth, he went from Grievous relative equal during TCW to stomping him in RotS, he went from circumstantially being ragdolled by Maul to likely being able to break out of Dooku's choke.
The Outer Rim Sieges aren't canon, so there goes your point.
Obi-Wan never stomped Grievous in RotS, yes he cut off two of his hands but still had to resort to the Force to make him retreat. The (canon) Kanan comic has actually proved the exact opposite, Depa also (much like Obi-Wan) cut off two of Grievous hands but was still defeated afterwards.
RotS JR novel never said Obi-Wan could break out of Dooku's grip.
Originally posted by MythLord
And he went from getting humiliated by the Count in lightsaber combat, to giving him at least a somewhat decent challenge.Obi's limit is Dooku+ characters, not Maul-tier characters.
Yeah over the ENTIRE course of TCW, that doens't only apply to the last months of it. If you're talking about the S6 encounter, Dooku never humiliated Obi-Wan, nor do we know how a fight between them would have been in RotS since Anakin was involved.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Obi-Wan goes from being outmatched to being superior in a span of months?
The first part of this statement is ignorant of Kenobi and Maul's antagonism, the second is ignorant of learning curves and accelerations of growth. Just look at the very contrasting environments they were bread in. Maul was trained to the apex of his career with many observers stating he couldn't exceed beyond that point - comments from both Qui Gon and his master Darth Sidious. He had already had his fair share of victories and training that threatened his life. Kenobi on the other hand, was born of the garden variety diplomacy learned in the Jedi order and only really improves his skills during the War. Months, sometimes weeks can see drastic improvements in fighting. Just look at Savage Opress, Quinlan Vos or Darth Vader for example. The point is that when new information, new fights, new skills become part of the lore, the old material is anachronous. No longer relevant to how characters are judged. You won't tell me that Quinlan Vos gets owned by Cad Bane after his performance in Dark Disciple?
Not to mention that Maul would logically grow as well in the end of TCW
It is? Or is this kind of logic is what's been plaguing the high expectations for Maul in Rebels? The assumption that Maul is competent enough to achieve mastery of the Force on his own accord, without an instructor. Really, the difference between himself in TPM and later incarnations is that he's become older, but perhaps not wiser. He's no longer accepted by the most powerful Sith Lord and the benefits that come with studying under him.
and possibly more since he's more powerful
There is little to nothing that suggesting Maul is more powerful than Obi Wan, and the discrepancy in their feats favours the latter, not the former.
Statlemating a hindered Anakin is not something what is going to put him above Maul
Given the amount of hype thrown in Anakin's relative direction, I'd say it does. When you start taking a critical comparison of feats, then you definitely someone that outclasses Maul, perhaps multiple times over.
especially since Maul has ragdolled Obi-Wan numerous times in TCW and should have grown in power as well near RotS.
I'd like to see your definition of 'ragdoll'. Because if Maul could incapacitate Kenobi in the same fashion that Dooku had, he wouldn't be pining for the nearest cybernetic surgeon with his dismembered brother and could spare the extra two seconds it takes to finish the job. So far, Maul's account of rag dolling is this:
- Choking him one occasion while amped by rage
- Force gripping Kenobi when he barely had the energy to stand, much less project a defensive barrier
- Catching Kenobi in a Force grip while the latter was distracted by his brother, but not being able to maintain that grip for more than two seconds
Shadow Conspiracy notes that Obi-Wan managed to hold is own on Florrum because of multiple reasons (the brothers hindering each other, Obi-Wan's sudden aggresiveness
Where does it state they were hindering each other? That's laughable, Kenobi alone is more than a match for Maul, given that he can literally disarm his Brother, while having to defend himself against Maul at the same time. That you have to excuse that by stating the two brothers couldn't handle Kenobi's sudden aggressiveness is equally laughable. One can just say that Kenobi was deviating from his favourite fighting form and still beat the Brothers.
and Savage lost his arm, which is why Maul retreated.
Proof? Lightsaber wounds cauterize themselves, So Savage isn't going to die from bloodloss. Realistically he could remain wounded indefinitely while Maul continues to fight Kenobi. So there must be another reason why he retreated, perhaps because he knew he couldn't win?