Vader/Starkiller vs Vitiate

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile is also immensely strong in terms of will, and I'd surmise that her bond with her party members, on top of their own force capabilities and strong wills would have helped them withstand Malachor's effects. At any rate it's clearly a very strong force, unlike Dromund Kaas as of the Kotor era which possessed a planetary population on it and therefore had like, babies and slaves walking around no problem.

And I doubt Revan and Malak would have been diminished by a DS nexus at that point in their careers. DS nexuses don't even always weaken Jedi, remember. Whie was strengthened on Vjun afterall.

You have a point there. Anakin and Scout were as well and it's implied Yoda was too. And though it could be argued that Whie and Anakin were bordering on the Darkside which explains it Scout was firmly in the Light as was noted by Yoda earlier in the novel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile is also immensely strong in terms of will, and I'd surmise that her bond with her party members, on top of their own force capabilities and strong wills would have helped them withstand Malachor's effects. At any rate it's clearly a very strong force, unlike Dromund Kaas as of the Kotor era which possessed a planetary population on it and therefore had like, babies and slaves walking around no problem.

And I doubt Revan and Malak would have been diminished by a DS nexus at that point in their careers. DS nexuses don't even always weaken Jedi, remember. Whie was strengthened on Vjun afterall.

And we are discussing Dromund Kaas' ability to wither a Jedi's connection to the Force, as potent dark side nexuses are known to do. Not mind rape woman and children, which they are not. And I remember Traya giving a big speech about how dark side nexi are great for breaking Jedi, and I remember Freedon Nadd putting this into practice against Exar Kun, yeah.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You have a point there. Anakin and Scout were as well and it's implied Yoda was too. And though it could be argued that Whie and Anakin were bordering on the Darkside which explains it Scout was firmly in the Light as was noted by Yoda earlier in the novel.

I believe the comparison was between Revan + Malak and Kyle, not Vader and SK. My point was merely that just because Kyle fell to something doesn't mean they would be bothered by it.

Traya gave that speech about how dark side nexii were great at breaking Jedi for Revan. Pretty sure he ain't gonna fall to the trick he already mastered, lol. He wasn't a Jedi by that point, not even close. Kaas wouldn't do shit to him.

Fair, but in that case I don't think Malachor became that potent until after the MSG event. Unless you have some evidence that suggests otherwise. There's also the added fact that in the end Malachor started them down the dark path.

And it's not a trick lol, its a cold reality that neither Revan nor Malak are immune to. The fact that Vitiate is described as completing their fall indicates they were still between worlds.

Thanks for the responses. I'm sure you're aware of my disagreement vis a vis Sidious and Vitiate. So I'll merely respond to the other points.

Aight, kewl.

Malachor is an incredibly more potent and corrupting influence than Dromund Kaas is, at least in the Kotor era. Revan and Malak were able to walk upon it's surface without succumbing or with much effort. Considering Kaas' effects on others throughout history, it seems to me that Kyle is the exception, instead of the rule. Not that his willpower can be compared to that of Revan and Malak's.

Well, I wasn't necessarily claiming the nexus itself capable of having any profound effect on Revan and co. - only that the nexus is a very powerful on indeed, and even though Malak and Revan was flirting with the darkside, they were still Jedi and the light side of the Force should still have been the primary source of their power. Hence, they should have experienced a rather noticeable drop in power - one that Marek and Vader shouldn't.

And I doubt Revan and Malak would have been diminished by a DS nexus at that point in their careers. DS nexuses don't even always weaken Jedi, remember. Whie was strengthened on Vjun afterall.

That's a possibility, but generally, dark side sites have been noted to diminish the strength of Jedi rather than strengthen them:

"Those connecting to the light side of the Force, find their power diminished in these places, while those who wield the darkside are amazed at the strength they gain, even as that energy overwhelms them."

Thirdly, Vader and Starkiller "skirt the darkside" a touch more than Revan and Malak did. Both are more susceptible to corruption than they were imo.

Well, Vader is already 99.99% committed to the dark side, so I doubt he can be corrupted. Marek is a possibility, but again, will he have the same negative circumstances Malak and Revan failed to circumvent?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fair, but in that case I don't think Malachor became that potent until after the MSG event. Unless you have some evidence that suggests otherwise. There's also the added fact that in the end Malachor started them down the dark path.

And it's not a trick lol, its a cold reality that neither Revan nor Malak are immune to. The fact that Vitiate is described as completing their fall indicates they were still between worlds.

Revan was dragging the corrupting influence of Malachor up into the battle before the MSG was activated to corrupt Jedi during the fighting.

They were a hell of a lot closer to the darkside than Anakin, Scout and Whie were, and those guys were getting amped by a ds nexus. That they weren't completely darkside doesn't mean they'd be weakened. And if Revan can specifically use nexii to corrupt Jedi its clear that he's highly immune to the same effects and capable of utilising their energy without any fear.

Getting amped by a dark side nexus doesn't make you unsusceptible to being corrupted by it, if anything the reverse is true. And again you're ignoring the fact that every bit of Sith power Revan dabbled in further warped and twisted his mind.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Getting amped by a dark side nexus doesn't make you unsusceptible to being corrupted by it, if anything the reverse is true. And again you're ignoring the fact that every bit of Sith power Revan dabbled in further warped and twisted his mind.

This seems like a solidly reasoned stance to me. When Whie drew on Vjun and in the passage of the novel where it's hinted Yoda momentarily grew stronger doing the same it had a corrupting influence on Whie and the air around Yoda apparently warped and darkened.

Yeah, Dooku also appears to attempt to Dun Moch Yoda into giving in to its influence, at which point Yoda appears to pull back from its "whispers". It would make sense that while on Dromund Kaas Revan and Malak might have felt themselves empowered by the nexus, but it would also have clouded their minds and weakened their spirit imo, making them more susceptible to Vitiate's influence.

The corrupting influence of Malachor V's planetary surface isn't much, lol. It's the Trayus Academy that's corrupting.

Not what the Revan novel through Meetra's point of view claims, 'traversing its surface had been agony' and all that.

More importantly though, the dark side power of Dromund Kaas was already strong enough before Vitiate arrived for him to choose the planet out of all the other lost planets to rebuild his empire on, coincidentally over pre-MSG Malachor V as well. Then he went about experimenting with his rituals and corrupted the planet even further, as well as creating dark side sites such as the Dark Citadel and the Dark Temple. Add on a thousand years of Sith inhabitants, namely the likes of the Emperor himself, and we have one seriously powerful seat from which the Sith Emperor could play the environment game from.

Take further into account that four thousand years later, where the Sith have abandoned Dromund Kaas and its sites of power have been diminished, such as the destruction of the Dark Temple by the Emperor, etc... and see how much of an effect it was still having on Kyle Katarn, Luke Skywalker, Jaina Solo and Ben Skywalker.

The idea that a Jedi isn't at a severe disadvantage on the planet, and Vitiate doesn't have every ace in the deck against said Jedi whilst on it, is pretty moronic at best.

Vitiate's on the same level as Plagueis, and I could see Plagueis winning tbh

@AP - I've given up using the Revan novel as a source for anything on KotOR II. Not that agony equates to mind control anyway. Unless I'm mistaken, it's been at the Trayus Academy that people are truly corrupted.

The reason I asked for an example of an established dark sider being mind hacked is that it seems to me that the ability to mind hack, be it Vitiate's or Palpatine's, requires a conversion to take place simultaneously. Consider Sidious's mindrape of Luke, Kam Solusar, and Starkiller. Or Vitiate with Revan, Malak, and the Jedi in SWTOR.

It also explains why the Sith rely on more conventional means of manipulation with established dark side adepts and why, almost always, they kill them outright rather than try to mindhack them.

Wouldn't a dark side HoT rebut that?

I'm mobile and so can't verify, but I'm pretty sure the SWTOR encyclopedia's page about the Hero vs Vitiate explicitly mentions that he's a light sider or some such. Can someone verify?

It doesn't look like it to me. No lightside stuff mentioned.

Can you post the image?

ARE YOU EVEN SORRY? - Vitiate screams to burning Galen who is very burned after many Lightning attacks after he was defeated. Angry Vitiate looks at corpses of Imperial Guard outside his throne room Galen killed to get there.

I... I... You... - Galen can't tell a word, he moans and sighs without end, he is like a worthless dying animal you would snap his neck to get rid of his suffering moans.

AAAAAA - screams angry Vitiate. He grabs head of mortally wounded Galen and sends much Lightning through the head. The most epic screams and moans of unended suffering galaxy never seen play through the stone halls of the temple.

Galen begs the Force to end his suffering, he never seen so much suffer.

Vitiate grabs Galen's almost dead body to the stairs steps. He leaves his head on first step.

Galen can't look, his eyes roll at every direction, he can't breathe. He looks at Vitiate and barely speaks.

-What are you... No... Please...

Vitiate stomps his head.

One crack, one weak scream, five seconds of suffering.

It all ends.

lmfao