Originally posted by TenebrousWay
lol, Ursumeles. Sidious is liying? Also, there's no proof the early banite line is above the TOR powerhouses. Curiously, Bane himself seems to suggest otherwise.
@Syn
1. I'll search the quote
2. Naturally they are.
Under the command of Lord Angral, the Sith fleet approaches the Republic’s capital planet for the first time in centuries. In advance of the fleet, the strongest Sith Warriors have flown a stolen Republic ship into Coruscant’s orbit. Their mission is critical – to destroy the planet’s defense grid mainframe hidden in the heart of the Jedi Temple.
-http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/deceived-cinematic-trailer
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nah, I just want to say that it isn't so, that Bane, Sorzus, and Malgus are his greatest precedessors. It is an really good accolade, but none which Traya couldn't archieve. When did Bane suggest that? Bane himself isn't that far, if at all, behind Malgus, imo. At least the latter half of the Banite Sith should be >Malgus.
Traya, while powerful and probably comparable to Malgus in the force, doesn't have any accolade or solid feat of combative skills. Malgus, however, was considered by Satele, as an apprentice, to have a larger force presence than Deceived Baras, who's solidly above Atris. Plus, Malgus accolades are far better.
One of the reasons for Bane creating the Rule of Two was the quality of the Sith material around him. If you read Jedi vs Sith/PoD you'll be unimpressed, like Bane.
On the late part of the banite line being more powerful than Malgus(the high end), I agree with you.
@Urs: Its likely Sidious excluded members of the Banite line considering every work they had created was already in Sidious's possession as the ultimate successor in the Banite line.
Also how does that invalidate the accolade? It just makes Zallow even more impressive and makes sense consider Malgus should have improved substantially up to Return and Zallow was matching him.
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Traya, while powerful and probably comparable to Malgus in the force, doesn't have any accolade or solid feat of combative skills. Malgus, however, was considered by Satele, as an apprentice, to have a larger force presence than Deceived Baras, who's solidly above Atris. Plus, Malgus accolades are far better.One of the reasons for Bane creating the Rule of Two was the quality of the Sith material around him. If you read Jedi vs Sith/PoD you'll be unimpressed, like Bane.
On the late part of the banite line being more powerful than Malgus(the high end), I agree with you.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
@Urs: Its likely Sidious excluded members of the Banite line considering every work they had created was already in Sidious's possession as the ultimate successor in the Banite line.Also how does that invalidate the accolade? It just makes Zallow even more impressive and makes sense consider Malgus should have improved substantially up to Return and Zallow was matching him.
Did he? Well then he probably wanted to get the perspective of the different types of powerful Sith. Philosopher, warrior, scientist, alchemist, etc. Granted we know the 5 Sith Sidious chose weren't equal in power but we know they were among the most powerful of whatever category Sidious chose them to represent.
That doesn't take away from the accolade as I said. It only increases the impressiveness of the people who defeated them.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Did he? Well then he probably wanted to get the perspective of the different type of powerful Sith. Philosopher, warrior, scientist, alchemist, etc. Granted we know the 5 Sith Sidious chose weren't of equal power but we knew they were among the most powerful of whatever category Sidious chose them to represent.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. Malgus accolades are also >Tenebrous'. Latter still shi!ts on him. That are all accolades that put him very high, but not necessarily above Traya. Plo Koon has also one of the "most powerful Jedi of all time" accolades iirc.
Traya oneshoted some of the most powerful Jedi of her time, oneshotted 20 of the best Sith, and ragdolled Sion, iirc. Sge also B-teamed Brianna and stomped Atton
2. Quote for Apprentice Malgus>Baras?
3. Why is Deceived Baras solidly above Atris?
4. Kaan still mindcontrolled thousands of Sith. And PoD Bane collapsed an big temple, grow far more powerful in RoT and became stronger again in DoE.
1. We know Tenebrous > Malgus by obvious scaling from Sidious. Plo Koon accolade stands, except in face of his proven betters - which can be compared directly, since they share the same era - like the main protags and antags of the PT era. That's how logic works. Traya isn't a proven superior of Malgus and doesn't even share the same accolades.
2. "There in the hangars I encountered the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side I have ever experienced-the man who would later be known as Darth Malgus. I had engaged in hundreds of practice duels with my fellow Padawans, but nothing prepared me for the sheer ferocity of the Sith. Darth Malgus would have killed me then and there were it not for Master Kao."
3. Deceived takes part during the peace treaty conference. If Baras is above Atris during the TOR game, he should be above her during the Deceived since, unlike Malgus, there's nothing stating he gained some sudden, unexpected increase of power.
4. Featless Sith. Amped Bane, although obviously, Bane isn't weak. I already proved in another thread that Malgus holding a large freighter is place is comparable or superior to Vader bringing down a cathedral. If that wasn't the intention of the author to wank Malgus hard with that feat, honestly, I'm not the one to blame.
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
1. We know Tenebrous > Malgus by obvious scaling from Sidious. Plo Koon accolade stands, except in face of his proven betters - which can be compared directly, since they share the same era - like the main protags and antags of the PT era. That's how logic works. Traya isn't a proven superior of Malgus and doesn't even share the same accolades.2. "There in the hangars I encountered the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side I have ever experienced-the man who would later be known as Darth Malgus. I had engaged in hundreds of practice duels with my fellow Padawans, but nothing prepared me for the sheer ferocity of the Sith. Darth Malgus would have killed me then and there were it not for Master Kao."
3. Deceived takes part during the peace treaty conference. If Baras is above Atris during the TOR game, he should be above her during the Deceived since, unlike Malgus, there's nothing stating he gained some sudden, unexpected increase of power.
4. Featless Sith. Amped Bane, although obviously, Bane isn't weak. I already proved in another thread that Malgus holding a large freighter is place is comparable or superior to Vader bringing down a cathedral. If that wasn't the intention of the author to wank Malgus hard with that feat, honestly, I'm not the one to blame.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. My point is just, that Jedi who haven't the same accolade as Plo(like Kenth, Mara, Jaina, heck, I think even ****ing Kyp Durron hasn't the same accolade) are his superiors. So also Sith, which don't share the same accolades with Malgus, could be above him.
2. Eh...not sure if it that really means that Malgus is more powerful. It implies, tho, that Apprentice Malgus>Baras in combat.
3. I think someone with such massive knowledge as Baras would grow in this years.
4. The Jedi that Zallow blitzed were also featless, lol. It is still extremely impressive. PoD Bane is far more powerful than Kaan, RoT Bane is even more powerful, and DoE Bane is the strongest. But fair enough, we shouldn't discuss if Bane is comparable to Malgus in this therad, lol.
Could you give me the reason, hy it is above Vaders Cathedral feat?
1. True but you need to prove a case by case basis. Sidious estabilished a thesis, finding an exception to that thesis doesn't make the exception the new thesis.
2. It's a pretty strong evidence. The fact it's still apprentice Malgus is extremely impressive.
3. Yes, he grew in power. By how much is debatable.
4. That's why you never saw me using Zallow to prove that Malgus is good. It's also the same reason I don't see Traya beating Atton as anything impressive.
Malgus holds down a support freighter/dropship that should weight around 200-600 tons. The ship's engines were at full power and a ship like that one can accelerate at hundreds of G's. But let's just suppose he's accelerating at 30G's (merely 3x more than Saturn V at the launch pad, an extremely conservative estimate). Malgus is holding down 6,000-18,000 worth of mass with his TK. For comparison, the roof structure of the Notre Dame cathedral weighs around 300 tons. Vader's cathedral was pretty big, so let's the area by 10 and increase the density by 2x in order to sustain the weight. Now, Vader is manipulating the same weight as the minimum estimate for Malgus. Note that multipliying the area by 10 and increasing material density by 2 I'm being very generous with Vader, while I lowballed Malgus feat to the most conservative estimate of mass and acceleration.
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
1. True but you need to prove a case by case basis. Sidious estabilished a thesis, finding an exception to that thesis doesn't make the exception the new thesis.
2. It's a pretty strong evidence. The fact it's still apprentice Malgus is extremely impressive.
3. Yes, he grew in power. By how much is debatable.
4. That's why you never saw me using Zallow to prove that Malgus is good. It's also the same reason I don't see Traya beating Atton as anything impressive.Malgus holds down a support freighter/dropship that should weight around 200-600 tons. The ship's engines were at full power and a ship like that one can accelerate at hundreds of G's. But let's just suppose he's accelerating at 30G's (merely 3x more than Saturn V at the launch pad, an extremely conservative estimate). Malgus is holding down 6,000-18,000 worth of mass with his TK. For comparison, the roof structure of the Notre Dame cathedral weighs around 300 tons. Vader's cathedral was pretty big, so let's the area by 10 and increase the density by 2x in order to sustain the weight. Now, Vader is manipulating the same weight as the minimum estimate for Malgus. Note that multipliying the area by 10 and increasing material density by 2 I'm being very generous with Vader, while I lowballed Malgus feat to the most conservative estimate of mass and acceleration.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
1. Yeah. I am arguing that Traya could also be an exception. None of the accolades Malgus has, are out of Traya's reach. How it would be if we just compare feats?
2. I didn't doubt that.
3. Hasn't Baras got his amp post-Deceived? If so, then I would say that the gap is big.
4. So...both suck in Sabers?
5. Impressive. When did the Cathedral feat took place again, btw? Lol.
But that isn't better than Starkillers best feats, who was dominated by Vader, or Dooku's Cruiser feat.
1. That she is not far away from him in the force, I may agree with you. That she is near him in combative power? I strongly disagree.
2. Fair
3. I don't exactly remember when Baras received his amps, that's why I clarified that Apprentice Malgus > Deceived Baras and not just > Baras. That Act III Baras > Apprentice Malgus is reasonable to expect.
4. Meetra soloed an amped Traya. In comparison, two protags of Meetra+ tier and two of the greatest non force sensitives in the galaxy were necessary to bring down Malgus in a neutral field.
5. Pre ANH. Vader's cathedral wasn't trivial exploit for him. The fact that he dominated Starkiller doesn't diminish the difficult of bringing down a cathedral. Dooku was at least slightly amped and many freighters are also considered cruisers. Depending on the ship, if Malgus can hold one who's accelerating at dozens (and potentially hundreds) of G's, obviously he can throw heavier ships at lower G's (note that 1G is free fall gravity. Throwing something at 1G is extremely impressive and fast). Also, note that Malgus literally grew significantly in power as per the novel after this feat and continued to grow until the Illum Flashpoint.
1. She oneshoted 20 elite Sith and powerful Jedi masters, which build the enclave. Have you read Nova's blog about that? If not, dew it. You 'll see that they aren't just featleass fodder.
3. K'
4. Lol. That's a good feat for Meetra-not a bad one for Traya. Why do you think that the Act III protags are>The Exile? The Outlander is momentary the only of the protags, whom I rank above her.
5. So? The Starkiller feat is still better, imo.
I hope the response is not too short, I am just eating Ice xD.
1. lol Powerful relative to what? For sure we know Malgus > Act III HoT > Act II HoT > Satele > Atris > Vrook/Kavar/Zaz Kai. This does not prove anything on Traya's favour. That she's powerful in the force and has great knowledge of force techniques everyone knows.
4. I consider Meetra, the Wrath and the HoT as per Act III to be very close to Obi Wan in sabers. The TOR protags being slightly above the Exile. Based on that I classify Malgus performance as being significantly superior to Traya's. I'm not saying Traya's defeat is a bad feat, just that it gives evidence on Malgus' favour (IMO).
5. My intention is to suggest Malgus parity with Dooku and Vader (depending how you consider the size of their force gap). If two characters have similar feats in TK manipulating a neutral object, I fail to see great disparities in other aplications.
No problem, I'm not fond of huge wall of texts and I'm often busy. xD
1. Powerful as in "extremely powerful fodder". IIRC, they severed the Exile together from the force. Also, what in combat feats has Malgus to suggest that he is >Traya? Ragdolling Sion, oneshotting the masters and assasins is more than impressive. Also, how are the likes of Satele/Atris>all the masters together?
4. But why do you think that the Act III protags>The Exile? Besting Sion, and beating Traya on a collosal DS nexus impresses me more, than what they have done.
5. Leia sometimes fails at TKing a no-name Jedi, but holds one day Millenium Falcon together. So, yeah...