Malgus and Thanaton vs Traya and Meetra

1. I meant they're more powerful than the master individually but now that you ask Satele is probably more powerful than their collective, just not as powerful as Traya. Sion is barely above fooder whose main feat is to kill unnamed fooders, dying multiple times by the hands of unnamed people, probably other fooders(until proven otherwise) and being defeated, while amped, by a Jedi trainee Atton. The fact that Zallow, of all people, blitzed the empire's finest(aka fooder) with extremely ease while deflecting blaster fire and schooling Aadras - and did not die or got injured in the process - is far superior to anything Sion ever did. There's also the fact that Zallow was a veteran from the Great Galactic War and "celebrated Jedi Master", according to Deceived and killed fooder without dying and - apparently without getting injured even once. Again, ragdolling Sion and Jedi masters who are even below Sion isn't above Malgus or even an impressive showing.
4. Later, cause it's probably going to be a bit longer.
5. Leia isn't battle savy as Malgus, Tyranus or Vader

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes, yes he is. Being one of the most skilled warriors in the Empire while he was still an apprentice and later becoming one of the Palpatine's greatest predecessors with battlefield feats that could never be replicated and fighting flawlessly against a team of the greatest Force users in the Galaxy puts him above f*cking Traya in skill. Jeezus christ.

Sorry, but some of the best in the Empire can still lose to non-Force sensitives. "One of his greatest predecessors" and "battlefield feats that have never been replicated" refer to Force power, not saber skill. Fighting flawlessly isn't literal, otherwise he wouldn't have lost.

None of this puts him above "****ing Traya". I think sticking to a feats comparison would be better here 😬

And Force power is directly tied to augmentation. A rather important factor in lightsaber combatant. Regardless of that though you're wrong when you say those quotes don't relate to his ability as a lightsaber combatant unless you have some proof otherwise.

Which would still put Malgus above since it takes the 4 protagonists of the Empire or Republic to defeat him.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And Force power is directly tied to augmentation. A rather important factor in lightsaber combatant. Regardless of that though you're wrong when you say those quotes don't relate to his ability as a lightsaber combatant unless you have some proof otherwise.

Which would still put Malgus above since it takes the 4 protagonists of the Empire or Republic to defeat him.

1. It's good that Traya has the feats to match or surpass Malgus in terms of power, then. And no, I'm not wrong. The predecessors quote is actually "one of his most powerful predecessors", and the battlefield feats quote was right after Sidious was talking about his Maelstrom, IIRC, which obviously isn't lightsaber combat. Sidious has a long history of saying that Sith warriors have "unmatched X", as well. Surely you've seen him claim that Maul and Vader have unmatched skills as a warrior? You don't seem to take those literally either, so it's a double-standard to invest so much into this.

2. Nowhere is it said that it takes all four for Malgus to be defeated, only that he did lose a strike team. It's never said to be the bare minimum necessary to defeat Malgus.

As I said, the accolades don't reflect your opinion of Malgus wrecking, and a feats comparison would suggest otherwise as well.

1. Except she really doesn't despite what you so desperately desire.

Malgus's ability to use malestrom and his battlefield feats is for the most part unrelated meaning your attempt to connect the quote to a reference to said ability fails utterly.

I take those quotes in the context they're given. I've never tried to deny either Maul or Vader's skill. I can't say the same for you.

2. It's noted that the Malgus mission is a 4 person Flashpoint.

Even using just his Deceived feats he's superior to Traya.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Except she really doesn't despite what you so desperately desire.

I can't really see you justifiably calling anybody else pompous when you're constantly talking to me like this 😬 Get off your high horse - everybody has their inherent biases and I've got one of the most bipartisan records here. You don't need to talk down to me about my biases or desires. I have facts. Can we just have this discussion without referring to other people's "desires"?

But yes, killing nearly a dozen elite Sith instantly and Draining the Council (noting just how colossal the gap needs to be for you to Drain someone), each Master of which "reached the pinnacle of Force mastery" and could restore the Jedi Enclave is beyond Malgus' ability.

Malgus's ability to use malestrom and his battlefield feats is for the most part unrelated meaning your attempt to connect the quote to a reference to said ability fails utterly.

Unrelated for what? Sidious is talking about how channeling his anger makes Malgus powerful, and there's even a picture of him using Maelstrom. Sidious goes on to talk about him perfecting Maelstrom himself, IIRC. That was pretty big part.

I take those quotes in the context they're given. I've never tried to deny either Maul or Vader's skill. I can't say the same for you.

Please. You fabricated context in the Mace v Dooku quote. Please don't try to talk down to me about context.

2. It's noted that the Malgus mission is a 4 person Flashpoint.

And there's nothing saying that it was the bare minimum required to defeat Malgus, only that such a group was organized and Malgus lost to them.

Even using just his Deceived feats he's superior to Traya.

If we're talking about skill, I'm not seeing how. Traya's justifiably better than Zallow on the grounds of better showings (blitzing Atris+ opponents > blitzing fodder Sith warriors, however elite they may be), so Malgus would only be around where Traya is.

Granted, Malgus grows in power afterwards, but that's why we have the Exile, who defeated Traya on a colossal geyser of dark side energies, here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I can't really see you justifiably calling anybody else pompous when you're constantly talking to me like this 😬 Get off your high horse - everybody has their inherent biases and I've got one of the most bipartisan records here. You don't need to talk down to me about my biases or desires. I have facts. Can we just have this discussion without referring to other people's "desires"?

But yes, killing nearly a dozen elite Sith instantly and Draining the Council (noting just how colossal the gap needs to be for you to Drain someone), each Master of which "reached the pinnacle of Force mastery" and could restore the Jedi Enclave is beyond Malgus' ability.

Unrelated for what? Sidious is talking about how channeling his anger makes Malgus powerful, and there's even a picture of him using Maelstrom. Sidious goes on to talk about him perfecting Maelstrom himself, IIRC. That was pretty big part.

Please. You fabricated context in the Mace v Dooku quote. Please don't try to talk down to me about context.

And there's nothing saying that it was the bare minimum required to defeat Malgus, only that such a group was organized and Malgus lost to them.

If we're talking about skill, I'm not seeing how. Traya's justifiably better than Zallow on the grounds of better showings (blitzing Atris+ opponents > blitzing fodder Sith warriors, however elite they may be), so Malgus would only be around where Traya is.

Granted, Malgus grows in power afterwards, but that's why we have the Exile, who defeated Traya on a colossal geyser of dark side energies, here.

Considering Krayt was capable of draining Abeloth and Luke I doubt it.

But then he goes on to refer to his battlefield feats. I highly doubt an experienced warrior who's likely been in hundreds of battles is going to be praised for his battlefield feats off the basis of knowing the "malestrom" technique. They're unrelated.

The quote is ambiguous and I intend to get it cleared up with the author. Regardless of what you believe my intent to be you should realize I took what you said about the quote possibly being a reference to others being a match for Dooku as legitimate which is why I agreed to put the point to the side in that particular debate.

Given Malgus occupied 3 of the combatants during the fight I'd say that implies pretty heavily the whole team was necessary to defeat him.

Oxymoron. If they're praised as being some of the best warriors in the Galaxy they cannot justifiably be fodder. And you're arguing the handmaidens are equal to Atris now? The debate is Traya and Malgus. Try to keep to that please.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Considering Krayt was capable of draining Abeloth and Luke I doubt it.

Completely different type of Drain, as I explained here: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/force-misconceptions-force-drain-kotor-ii/128438/

Krayt's Drain resembles Drain Life. It doesn't resemble KotOR II's Drain by any stretch of the imagination.

And likewise, given that Nihilus only managed to partially Drain Traya, we can see what kind of disparity is needed to fully enact the Drain. Traya's vastly, vastly more powerful than those Masters.

But then he goes on to refer to his battlefield feats. I highly doubt an experienced warrior who's likely been in hundreds of battles is going to be praised for his battlefield feats off the basis of knowing the "malestrom" technique. They're unrelated.

The passage was about what Malgus could do with his anger, IIRC, which was also why Sidious gave the journal to Vader for inspiration.

The quote is ambiguous and I intend to get it cleared up with the author. Regardless of what you believe my intent to be you should realize I took what you said about the quote possibly being a reference to others being a match for Dooku as legitimate which is why I agreed to put the point to the side in that particular debate.

I think you're the only one who finds it ambiguous, but I respect your decision to take it aside.

Given Malgus occupied 3 of the combatants during the fight I'd say that implies pretty heavily the whole team was necessary to defeat him.

And yet, if only 3 combatants turn up, Malgus can suddenly only "occupy" 2 of them. And if only 2 turn up, Malgus can suddenly only "occupy" 1 of them.

Oxymoron. If they're praised as being some of the best warriors in the Galaxy they cannot justifiably be fodder. And you're arguing the handmaidens are equal to Atris now?

I didn't say the Handmaidens were equal to Atris, only the Last of the Handmaidens, or Brianna, who stalemated Atris in dueling before being destroyed in the Force. And she grows after that.

Which is why Traya being able to blitz someone like Brianna is better than Zallow being able to blitz Sith warriors. Hence, Traya's better than Zallow, which would put her about where Deceived Malgus is. As I said, Malgus grows more powerful afterwards, but Meetra's also here, and she's better than Traya.

The debate is Traya and Malgus. Try to keep to that please.

I am.

I'm not seeing the differences between the two draining techniques. If Force Drain doesn't kill it weakens the victim and the same goes for Drain Life. Drain Life feeds on a beings life energies and Force Drain feeds on a beings death. The only difference you could argue would be that Force Drain actively severs a beings connection to the Force but it's mentioned when Nihilus and Sion betray Traya that Nihilus employs Force sever separately.

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/3826642-9895533996-XLA8S.gif

And that's fine but his "unmatched battlefield feats" is not tied to his ability to use "malestrom."

Thanks.

I assumed we were going off the basis that he did indeed fight all 4 given its mentioned that it's a 4 person flashpoint.

"blitzing Atris plus level opponents."

You indicated she did this to multiple opponents above Atris's level.

Why? What puts Atris above these Sith warriors?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm not seeing the differences between the two draining techniques. If Force Drain doesn't kill it weakens the victim and the same goes for Drain Life. Drain Life feeds on a beings life energies and Force Drain feeds on a beings death.

They're completely different. Drain Life is just you funneling someone's life energy into yourself. Force Drain is cutting somebody's life and connection to the Force off, and then feeding on the ensuing death. One is feeding on life, the other is feeding on death.

The only difference you could argue would be that Force Drain actively severs a beings connection to the Force but it's mentioned when Nihilus and Sion betray Traya that Nihilus employs Force sever separately.

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/3826642-9895533996-XLA8S.gif

It's never said that he used Sever Force separately, and Sever Force is actually a light-sided power where you block someone's connection to the Force with the light. Nihilus didn't use that 😬

It's clear that Nihilus partially succeeded in severing Traya from the Force as part of his Force Drain, but not completely.

And that's fine but his "unmatched battlefield feats" is not tied to his ability to use "malestrom."

Well, if we can't reach a consensus here, then we can agree to disagree.

I assumed we were going off the basis that he did indeed fight all 4 given its mentioned that it's a 4 person flashpoint.

Not at all. I'm merely contextualizing the game mechanics that you're bringing up.

"blitzing Atris plus level opponent[b]s."

You indicated she did this to multiple opponents above Atris's level.[/b]

No, I'm just using plurality in general reference, if you know what I mean. It's just Brianna.

Why? What puts Atris above these Sith warriors?

Well for one, she's better than Kavar even before she studied from her Sith Holocrons. Kavar being revered as one of the greatest warriors of his time, perhaps even the greatest (until Revan came along, of course). As a master of Juyo, Kavar's a high-level master of at least two other forms and is one of the most skilled Force users in existence. Add to that that he's considered a virtuoso of lightsaber combat in an era where the common Jedi is an expert of lightsaber and Force-related combat. And Atris was better than him, even before she studied teachings of combat and the Force from dozens of Sith holocrons.

Brianna fought her to a standstill, then gained strength through her Bond with the Exile as the Exile fed off the deaths of legions of Sith on Citadel Station and the Ravager. And after that, she was still blitzed by Traya.

Your unstoppable aren't you? I've been going nonstop for 2 hours and you still haven't given in.

I was told you innovated the wall of text style of debating but I didn't know how true that was. Until now.

I'm savoring my last few days before I won't be able to be on much, lol. And I'm not going anywhere today in particular, so yeah, I'm basically able to stay on the whole time whilst doing other things.

This isn't much of a wall of text, lol. Have you seen my longer walls?

And yes, I often feel that about stubborn people who refuse to let up no matter the circumstances. Sometimes I'm among those people.

Where you going?

To throw himself off Ayers Rock for his shit opinions

I'm not going anywhere. I'll just be buried by huge workloads. And I have plans with friends, lol, just not this week.

So a group suicide, awesome

ur dumb

Nou

kys

I'm going to just wait till your busy and then respond. Hopefully others will do the same and you'll get overloaded.