That's some legit wankery rite there. But nevertheless, I'll indulge. What makes Vader a better duelist in terms of Force power? Because all the evidence suggests the suit, the loss of living tissue and the obstruction of metal appendages makes it harder to call on the Force in a sword fight, not easier. Why can Luke, someone who's aptitude is no better than Anakin's, match Vader without any where near the level of training Padawan Anakin received?
LOL @ legit wankery
Sure the suit makes it harder to amp But that's offset against Vader being more powerful in the Force. Plus the fact that the cybernetics can give a tremendous amount of strength and speed even without force usage.. Grievous anyone?
Fact is though he DOES still amp his physical abilities through the Force as confirmed in LOTS.
As for Luke beating Vader, that's an ambiguous example to use given Luke being the Chosen One Take 2, and given Luke was doing exactly what Vader wanted him to do- I.e attack him in a frenzy and go for the berserker kill.
No point in lowballing with this "Luke was a noob and beat Vader" nonsense anymore, when the new Canon has made it perfectly clear that even ridiculously well trained Sith like Maul know they are no match for him, showing superiority over classically well trained Non-Cyborgs like Ahsoka and stomping less than fully trained Jedi 1 handed.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That's some legit wankery rite there. But nevertheless, I'll indulge. What makes Vader a better duelist in terms of Force power? Because all the evidence suggests the suit, the loss of living tissue and the obstruction of metal appendages makes it harder to call on the Force in a sword fight, not easier. Why can Luke, someone who's aptitude is no better than Anakin's, match Vader without any where near the level of training Padawan Anakin received?
"while Anakin's raw power was immense, his knowledge of the Force was limited to fairly straightforward techniques"
"the Jedi Knight Jax Pavan acknowledged that he had never encountered a Force-user as powerful as Vader"
"Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological,"
"After Vader's injuries, his natural strength was vastly augmented by the addition of his cybernetic enhancements. In addition, Vader retained the ability to increase his physical abilities by using the Force. In fact, despite the cumbersome weight of his armor and prosthetics, Vader was still capable of moving faster than the human eye could perceive by using precision bursts of the Force speed technique."
Originally posted by Darth Thor
LOL @ legit wankery
You can mock the terminology, but that's what it is Thor. Have you ever considered the possibility of Vader being weaker than Anakin, and that any vast discrepancy in power is more than likely to favour his younger, less droid-like state?
Sure the suit makes it harder to amp
So it's a concession?
But that's offset against Vader being more powerful in the Force.
That doesn't make sense. The Force is just a metaphsical energy that can be harnessed by someone with enough midi-chlorians. The Force doesn't suddenly become stronger in him all of a sudden unless he get's better at channeling it - which requires living tissue, an element of lesser abundance for the suited-up Vader.
Plus the fact that the cybernetics can give a tremendous amount of strength and speed even without force usage.. Grievous anyone? Fact is though he DOES still amp his physical abilities through the Force as confirmed in LOTS.
Vader's cybernetics increase the strength of whatever part of the limb they're replacing, in the case of a duel, it's his forearms and wrists. While they might be stronger than whatever strength increases an average Jedi can hope to muster when drawing upon the Force, they're also capped to a certain level of exertion. Vader can not use the Force to enhance his these spare parts, so wether he's actually stronger than Anakin or not, is yet to be confirmed.
As for Luke beating Vader, that's an ambiguous example to use given Luke being the Chosen One Take 2
In a thread where Anakin Skywalker, at the height of his abilties, is your opponent, than it's not an ambiguous example at all, it is a actually the best example to use. Even if Luke is the Chosen One incarnate, I wasn't aware that made him better than Anakin and t's quite the opposite is the case - Anakin's potential is greater than Luke's. May I remind you this - the idea of Luke being the second-coming of his father, came from George Lucas himself, the same guy who claimed Vader was a crippled half-droid and out of his prime.
and given Luke was doing exactly what Vader wanted him to do- I.e attack him in a frenzy and go for the berserker kill.
Luke matched him before that catalystic event, according to numerous sources, and I doubt he was doing exactly what Vader wanted when cutting the messenger's hand off.
No point in lowballing with this "Luke was a noob and beat Vader" nonsense anymore
We'll it happened, and it happened in the highest order of illustration for both Canon and Legends, the movies. Even if Luke's potential isn't diluted, he has nowhere near the training of the chosen-one primera, and that's just talking about Attack of the Clones Anakin.
when the new Canon has made it perfectly clear that even ridiculously well trained Sith like Maul know they are no match for him, showing superiority over classically well trained Non-Cyborgs like Ahsoka and stomping less than fully trained Jedi 1 handed.
1) I am taking in regard everything that was declared canon, past or present, that illustrated these two in a form of media. Reducing the argument to new Canon artistry is just a way to dismiss sources unfavourable to your argument.
2) Maul has always been a joke in Legends, and is now an old Joke in Rebels. I was the first one to call it, and now everyone can see how abundantly clear Maul's failings are. Press this point, and you will loose
3) Ashoka is neither better trained nor does she have the potential of Anakin Skywalker, Vader beating her in an arena that swelled with visible darkside Energy means very little in terms of how he fights his younger, faster, more powerful and less handicapped self
4) Anakin is legitimately the better of Dooku who has humiliated more competent Jedi than Kanan. Sora Bulq & Tholme simultaneously, Obi Wan, Quinlan Vos. Vader neither compares in Legends or Canon, as someone who's most notable kill is the Dark Woman.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Yoda and Palpatine seem to be pretty even as far as augmentation goes, and Yoda disarms him through superior skill - which makes sense.
False. Yoda disarmed Sidious with his superior speed, not skill, although I admit he is the latter's superior in that department, though not by much.
Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow.
-RotS junior novel
Here's a quote that stating Vader's strength and knowledge advantage.
"Black armorweave and feats of strength weren't the only things that distinguished Darth Vader from Anakin Skywalker. Where Anakin had had limited access to the Jedi Temple data room, Vader–even light-years from Coruscant–could peruse any data he wished, including archival records, ancient texts, and holocrons fashioned by past Masters."
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
Originally posted by Rebel95
Apparently not according to the quote I just posted.Also the fact that he had access to all that information explains Vader's greater mastery of the force.