Team DC vs Team Marvel

Originally posted by Sin I AM
has flash ever gone apeshit?

Originally posted by t0sh
I'm following the established rules and going with what would occur in character.

Originally posted by t0sh
If we were to go against the established norm that has been set in place by both the writers and artists, I would simultaneously argue that Thor can just cut off his connection to the speed force. He's done so with Cyttorak, which is more powerful than the Phoenix Force, so he should be fully capable of doing so to the Flash as well.

Originally posted by t0sh
Considering that an in character Flash wouldn't drain them of their speed right off the bat

Originally posted by t0sh
and the fact that Wally wouldn't possibly put Thor down

Originally posted by t0sh
But these are all hypothetical scenarios that probably would not occur. Therefore it's best to stick to with what is likely as opposed to what is not. Logical consistency is always a better alternative than illogical, speculative conjecture.

Originally posted by t0sh
Superman Prime still has no way of putting down Trion Juggernaut indefinitely.

Originally posted by t0sh
Pre-Crisis Darkseid is less durable than Thanos, whose shields are strong enough to deflect anything that Darkseid can throw at him.

Originally posted by t0sh
And Darkseid lost to Supes the next time they fought in the same series.

Originally posted by t0sh
Because of this, it's illogical that he would possess enough strength on his own to overcome Thanos, whose been shown to be capable of tangling with the likes of Odin and Galactus.

I'm arguing what's in character though, not you. You're just shutting down valid arguments on the basis of being the OP, which is guess is your prerogative.

You're assuming Flash is dumb and immobile like the Juggernaut, which is a silly assertion.

Full capacity and bloodlusted would suggest otherwise.

How the f is this a "fact"?

Wally isn't doing anything here.

All you're doing is cherry picking possible scenarios that support your point of view

He could arguably punch through Jugg's shield, since he effortlessly punched through two vastly larger dimensions to get to the 5th and pull Mxy out, among other dimensional busting punches. Don't like that? Flash takes off his helmet right off the bat and DS puts him down. Or better yet, DS mind controls him. Now it's 4v2

Even at the possibility of his durability being breached, no level of injury will actually kill him. At least as long as he's the only Juggernaut. Even aged a hundred or more years and he didn't stop or slow down. Even when reduced to nothing more than a skeleton by a magical being stronger than Doc Strange, it didn't stop him. Cain Marko, the Juggernaut, just kept coming.

Originally posted by Cogito
Yes. And it's caused him to speed steal and speedforce dump

I'm arguing what's in character though, not you. You're just shutting down valid arguments on the basis of being the OP, which is guess is your prerogative.

You're assuming Flash is dumb and immobile like the Juggernaut, which is a silly assertion.

Full capacity and bloodlusted would suggest otherwise.

How the f is this a "fact"?

All you're doing is cherry picking possible scenarios that support your point of view

He could arguably punch through Jugg's shield, since he effortlessly punched through two vastly larger dimensions to get to the 5th and pull Mxy out, among other dimensional busting punches. Don't like that? Flash takes off his helmet right off the bat and DS puts him down. Or better yet, DS mind controls him. Now it's 4v2

PC Darkseid was vastly more powerful than PC Superman, who was crazy powerful in his own right.

You're going to need to be more specific

Again, PC Darkseid is signficantly more powerful than PC Superman, who's in turn more powerful than the Hulk, who Thanos fears. Strong arguments could be made for PC Darkseid being comparable to Classic Odin or Galactus. Thanos was just put down the Ultimates. Lets not pretend like he's unbeatable because he's definitely not.

👆

All arguments for Darkseid fail at this one. OF won't work since regular Classic Juggernaut couldn't be deleted from existence. Mind-raping, telepathic control won't work either. This Juggy was totaly imune to psi-blasts - furthere argument is that Cain's mind is takes by the evil side of the Trion gods who are at least the abstract level (totality of their realm/universe/dimension so basicly Eternities of their domain). He actually sucked Logan and Charles into his conciousness (with that feat shown the massive telepathic abilities himself).

Also strength, durability and stamina of Trion Juggernaut are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> even PC Darkseid (he was busting dimensions and dimensional barriers with his punches, incident left of dozens of dimensions/universes messed up ). Actually his durability and stamina are infinite.

Like Classic Cain this Juggy was immortal (he is powered version of Classic). And Trion Juggernaut was an inteligent villain so no arguments like PC Darkseid wins due to inteligence.

Also BFR I think won't be an option, since it would be impossible. To BFR him to another dimension/universe he will come back after 1 punch. To try to toss him to another side of the universe well out-muscle his forcefield and than outmuscle him (which is impossible).

So why did you even make this thread if you're just going to argue with anyone who doesn't share your predetermined opinion on the outcome/characters? srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
So why did you even make this thread if you're just going to argue with anyone who doesn't share your predetermined opinions on the outcome? srsly

You're supposed to produce a convincing argument that can determine the winner. Arguments and counter arguments are expected, because we are trying to find a solution. Arguing that I'm not allowed to have an opinion on the matter is irrelevant, since my contribution can help allocate objective reasoning.

When Wally is apeshit, he does more than just 'kill' someone. He tortures them for eternity:

Doing something on one occasion doesn't necessarily make it the standard norm. There are countless scenarios where characters do something, but it doesn't mean that this is an in character feat that they can and will perform. From what we presently know about Flash, speed stealing, IMP attacks and punching one million times per second are strictly out of character.

Odin shook the Multiverse, but I won't say that it is a level of attack that he would always do if he's blood lusted.

People need to recognize this.

Future Flash kills them all.

Originally posted by t0sh
Doing something on one occasion doesn't necessarily make it the standard norm. There are countless scenarios where characters do something, but it doesn't mean that this is an in character feat that they can and will perform. From what we presently know about Flash, speed stealing, IMP attacks and punching one million times per second are strictly out of character.

Odin shook the Multiverse, but I won't say that it is a level of attack that he would always do if he's blood lusted.

People need to recognize this.

Being bloodlusted is also out of character, so as you've made him bloodlusted, in character, a bloodlusted Wally does speed steals.

If you feel different, please, post the times he has been apeshittily angry and NOT speed stolen. THEN we can ascertain what is the norm for an angry Wally and what isn't.

We've covered this on several occasions already, being blood lusted implies that you're seeking blood. That's it, kapeesh. Trying to lower someones speed contradicts this principal, making it illogical and falsifying the analogy completely.

Originally posted by t0sh
We've covered this on several occasions already, being blood lusted implies that you're seeking blood. That's it, kapeesh. Trying to lower someones speed contradicts this principal, making it illogical and falsifying the analogy completely.

Not really.

In this thread, Wally speed steals, so he can make his opponents bleed out satisfyingly. Or lends speed to just the blood, so LOADS of it rushes out at once.

The speed steal is just an intermediary step. One that Flash, who has attosecond reaction times, could perform in the blink of a heartbeat.

Flash doesn't appear to be blood lusted in the scan above because it contradicts what 'blood lusted,' even means, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Anyways, this is counter-able.

The scan above shows that his speed is gone, but his mind is still completely functional. Therefore Thor can surround himself in lightning, and one shot of this would incapacitate Flash.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Random/ThorLightning04AvengersClassic5.jpg

Or he can summon lightning from the sky while being completely immobilized:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Random/ThorLightning05v229.jpg

Thor can also expel lightning while being immobilized:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Random/ThorOmniblast01AvengersAnnual07.jpg

Not only that, but Thor can use his mind and willingly force Mjolnir to attack The Flash:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Mjolnir/ThorMjolnir22-Self-GuidanceAvengers.jpg

Not even Zues is powerful enough to stop it, in all likeliness, neither would Flash:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Mjolnir/ThorMjolnir100-SummoningAnnual08.jpg

Thor has also shown the capability to summon lightning and/or storms from his body, he doesn't need speed to do so:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Mjolnir/ThorMjolnir94-Storm279.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Mjolnir/ThorMjolnir97-Storm.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Mjolnir/ThorMjolnir150-StormsAvengers306.jpg

Even if Flash attempts to dodge his attacks by traversing through dimensions, Thor can summon lightning without Mjolnir, that will follow him through dimensions:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Mjolnir/ThorMjolnir153-LightningAnnual14.jpg

One The Flash realizes that stealing his speed won't be an option, Thor will have the opportunity to counter-attack. One solution to decimating Flash would be to cover the entire world in a storm, giving the Flash nowhere to hide:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/11130/111302504/5469333-4062234663-qDIam.jpg

Thor can use the Speed Force and redirect its energies back at him, and multiple such energy by as much as 10x:

http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/11130/111302504/5469334-2666594395-3ZxfD.jpg

Thor has the capability to cover the entire planet in lightning, giving Flash nowhere to run. This form of attack would probably one shot the flash. Additionally, Mjolnir gives Thor the ability to cut off Flash's access to the Speed Force and/or absorb any sort of energy and redirect it back towards the Flash. Without Flash's access to the speed force, he loses rather quickly. To support these analogies, I'll include some scans to prove that Thor will last long enough to pull off one of these attacks.

Durability:

Thor resists crushing gravitation forces "akin to that of a neutron star" This amount of force is superior to anything that the Flash can dish out. Because of this, the Flash doesn't have a way to put Thor down indefinitely, he's too durable.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/11130/111302504/5469335-7297286740-ThorD.jpg

Thor has resisted the "devastating energy of an exploding sun."

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/11130/111302504/5469338-5632182578-ThorD.jpg

Thor survives being rocked by multiple blasts by the Fourth Host of Celestials, which are Universal level entities and are infinitely more powerful than Wally West. If these being are incapable of putting Thor down immediately, than Wally West would also be ineffective.

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/11130/111302504/5469341-8169935216-ThorD.jpg

Counter to Mind Tampering:

Thor can resist any mind tampering that the Flash tries to do to him. Here he even resists the Mind Gem, which would be a more effective attack than anything that the Flash can dish out.

Counter to Phasing:

Thor survives Shadowcat's phasing ability which bonds him physically with the ground itself

Counter to speed stealing:

Thor can create swirling force fields that can negate Flash's access to the Speed Force. He managed to cut off Juggernauts influence from Cytorrak, something significantly more powerful than the Speed Force.

These force fields that Thor can create are so powerful that they can negate attacks that are strong enough to destroy one fifth of the Universe. Therefore, IMP attacks are hereby rendered useless.

Thor has counters to anything that the Flash can do and he has survived attacks that could one shot the Flash, attacks that are significantly more powerful than anything that the Flash can do. Therefore, Flash would be unable to damage him. Even so, if he tried, Thor can simply use Mjolnir and negate all of his attacks, and if the Flash comes anywhere near him, Thor can cut off his access to the Speed Force, and one shot him. If the Flash kept his distance and decided not to come close, Thor can cover the planet in lightning and one shot him.

Since Flash is blood lusted, he wouldn't try and steal Thor's speed. He would engage Thor in combat. But the problem is that The Flash is predictable, and Thor would catch on to this eventually and counter him:

Thor is more than durable enough to absorb anything that the Flash can dish out.

Tanking Celestial attacks
Tanking Destroy Amour attacks
Tanking Odin attacks
Tanking weight of half a planet
Tanking weight of a couple of planets
Tanking planet destruction
Sitting in sun
Tanking attacks from Surtur

These are all classic Thor feats, in no way whatsoever, can the Flash hit harder than the Destroyer, Odin, Surtur or a friggen Celestial.

Thor is capable of throwing his hammer and having it trail the flash. So as the Flash is busy pummeling away on Thor, whose no selling his attacks, Mjolnir would connect and one shot the Flash:

The Flash's body has been shown to be affected by temperatures or lightning:

If Thor decides to use Mjolnir to attack Wally West, or if he decides to summon lightning himself, he could target Wally and cripple him, making it impossible for him to run away. Furthermore, Thor's feats above, particularly the one where Thor covers the world in lightning, shows that this would be an effective tactic, since the Flash would have nowhere to run and would eventually become crippled.

Additionally, the Flash is affected by water, so Thor could channel some water and decide to drown him:

Mjolnir has such a wide array of abilities that Thor can use it to affect the ground below him, which would affect the Flash and give Thor the opportune moment that he needs to single shot him:

Wally West does not posses the strength to damage Thor, whom also has a wide array of abilities that he can use to incapacitate the Flash's body and/or his connection to the speed force. Because these two are blood lusted, it will likely become a physical battle, which means that Thor will no sell his attacks until he decides to unleash Mjolnir and/or use his weather abilities to cover the planet in lightning and/or affect the Flash, momentarily incapacitating him... but... that's all he needs.

So a blood lusted fighter forgets all his skills and abilities and fights like a caveman? Does that apply to everyone or just Wally? Does that just apply to the DC characters? Like RL physics, your dictionary definition matters little here. Blood-lust is used to say, willing to kill, to go beyond CIS or self induced restrictions. It is used to say to the fullest of a characters abilities to the death. Your use here is a hindrance to their fighting abilities.

Juggernaut's powers being magic based is irrelevant. He is not a sorecer, he won't attack SMP with magic. He is going to punch the life out of him.
On the other hand, SMP can't hurt Juggy. Darkseid can't hurt Juggy. Wally can absolutely not hurt him.
Juggernaut is unstoppable, flash can't speed-steal him.
it
Oh, and BFR? Trion J can come back out of any dimension he is trapped, by punching his way out, so there goes BFR. Not to mention that Thanos can teleport him.
TP? I'm not well aware of PC darkseid's TP feats but Thanos is a top level telepath whi makes planetary telepaths look like chumps. He can stop TP attacks. Not to mention that this verison of juggernaut is difficult to TP.

Infact THanos can BFR them allto an alternate dimension.

Originally posted by apex_pretador
Juggernaut's powers being magic based is irrelevant. He is not a sorecer, he won't attack SMP with magic. He is going to punch the life out of him.
On the other hand, SMP can't hurt Juggy. Darkseid can't hurt Juggy. Wally can absolutely not hurt him.
Juggernaut is unstoppable, flash can't speed-steal him.
it
Oh, and BFR? Trion J can come back out of any dimension he is trapped, by punching his way out, so there goes BFR. Not to mention that Thanos can teleport him.
TP? I'm not well aware of PC darkseid's TP feats but Thanos is a top level telepath whi makes planetary telepaths look like chumps. He can stop TP attacks. Not to mention that this verison of juggernaut is difficult to TP.

Infact THanos can BFR them allto an alternate dimension.

No limit fallacy anyone? SMP can't hurt jugs, Darkseid can't hurt jugs. Wally can't speed steal. why? because he's unstoppable!!

Are you aware SMP can punch through dimensions, too? Darkseid can teleport, too? Wally has an IMP, capable of hurting Superman? Oh, I forgot, blood lusted, so they forget all of their abilities and skill and fight like idiots.

Originally posted by Faceless808
No limit fallacy anyone? SMP can't hurt jugs, Darkseid can't hurt jugs. Wally can't speed steal. why? because he's unstoppable!!

Are you aware SMP can punch through dimensions, too? Darkseid can teleport, too? Wally has an IMP, capable of hurting Superman? Oh, I forgot, blood lusted, so they forget all of their abilities and skill and fight like idiots.

Originally posted by Faceless808
So a blood lusted fighter forgets all his skills and abilities and fights like a caveman? Does that apply to everyone or just Wally? Does that just apply to the DC characters? Like RL physics, your dictionary definition matters little here. Blood-lust is used to say, willing to kill, to go beyond CIS or self induced restrictions. It is used to say to the fullest of a characters abilities to the death. Your use here is a hindrance to their fighting abilities.

Originally posted by iceman24567
👆 Juggs being invincible here is laughable considering the versatility of team DC

That's what I'm saying. 👆

Originally posted by t0sh
Pre-Crisis Darkseid would still have a difficult time with Thanos, whom was capable of forcing Galactus to exert some effort just to break through his force fields; that and Odin had some difficulty putting him down -mind you, he was trying to get him to surrender and he was fighting the Silver Surfer at the same time.

You're acting like Galactus or Odin are above Darkseid.

Superman Prime & Trion Juggernaut's feats place them into the same category, however; Trion Juggernaut cannot die. Prime can't really BFR Juggy as far as I'm aware. Jugs should deal with him after a prolonged battle.

The same Juggernaut who was getting overpowered by a random octopus?

Wally West doesn't have the punching power to put Thor down.

Team Marvel for me.

That's correct. But Wally isn't needed here.