ANH Vader vs TPM Maul

Started by Darth Thor11 pages
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
If we're not going by feats than the only valid holistic comparison is Dooku >> RotS Kenobi > Old Ben <= Vader. Vader fans are shooting themselves in the foot here because lifting up big shit with TK is the only thing we've seen from Galen/Starkiller otherwise he's the guy who gets slapped by Shadow Gaurds.

Who says ROTS Kenobi > ANH Kenobi in the Force? Remember it was Dooku's use of TK that ROTS Kenobi really struggled with.

Oh pre-prime Galen got hit by a shadow guard once? Well that proves everything then.

Dooku got knocked down and floored against Savage's Brute strength and Beastly TK. And later Choked. Vader's >> Savage in both those departments and is also properly trained and laughably more skilled.

Conclusion: Vader is Dooku's worst nightmare.

Holistically speaking, RotS Vader being above Anakin, and suited Vader being his prime in Canon, puts Vader above all Dooku's Canon showings, including the Kenobi ragdoll.

^ Yeah of course. Fact is Anakin/Vader has already beaten Dooku years prior to his prime.

Imo equals in sabers, but Vader has Force edge

Honestly, what proof is there the ships were even 75 meters long at minimum? It doesn't specify the era the ships are from, what the ship type is, etc.

Dooku's best TK feats:

Let's speculate how many tons these obelisks weigh:

Collapsing a bridge:

And these two only b/c they're funny af 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fair points, however we don't even have an accurate fix on the size of the ships, 75m is just a guesstimation, I'm not sure how big that tower is but it looks pretty big.

75m was the smallest battleship we could find, no? Unless you're going for bigger.

Though to be quite honest, ILS has a point when he says these kinds of comparisons are insufficient, and without accurate calculations we can only make broad comparisons and opinion based conclusions. Hence why I find Vader's general superiority to Starkiller more compelling.

Of course Vader's more powerful than Tyranus.

First of all it is powerful enough to make the Jedi afraid to go there:

That's based on reputation, not the actual power. I mean, your quote outright talks about the legends of Korriban, lol.

And its dark side presence is profoundly felt by Kenobi from the moment they exit hyperspace:

Of course a Jedi will react negatively to a DS nexus (even if it's weak) than a Sith.

When they land on the planet, the dark side begin to project illusions, and this is just in Dreshdae, where the Sith barely had a presence at all:And when they arrive at the ancient Sith monastery (where the hangar was located) the dark side appears to be even more concentrated:There is more, in particular the Valley of the Dark Lord is described as steeped in the dark side, and pretty much blows DMB's Tukata comparison out of water, lmao.

Umm, that was Dooku projecting the illusions, which is why when he left, Obi-Wan felt the dark side retracting, the visions disappearing, etc.

Something rushed out, as if a great power had removed its protection from Omega.

The visions of the Sith Lords faded. The dark side of the Force retreated. The Sith would not be found. Obi-Wan knew he had withdrawn both his presence and his protection.

-- Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

More to the point, the dark side was alive and well on Korriban. Enough to amp Dooku to a notable degree, surely.

One wonders how much of the discomfort and everything else the Jedi felt was up to Dooku, actually. After all, when Dooku used telekinesis, he was leaving behind pools of darkness, which is the probably the most noticeable thing about the nexus at this point.

And why wouldn't Dooku grow powerful enough to replicate the showing? He was allowed to peruse the Banite archives and owned at least an entire shelf of holocrons, and we know he got more powerful whenever he used one, not to mention his Force potential being enigmatic for even Yoda. It's not hard to imagine that he'd grow in power in the four remaining years of his life.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Starkiller had no time to gather his power, so while he didn't do it with ease it's not his limit either.

Cool, Starkiller was also guiding the Salvation, and he was just past of shielding himself from atmospheric re-entry 🙂

These feats are not on the same level.

1. Sure.

2. Smashing together several 75m+ ships with hilarious ease > disintegrating the smaller half of a 300m frigate and shielding it from re-entry with maximum effort.

Not to mention that Dooku threw the ships into the walls hard enough to disintegrate the ships anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
75m was the smallest battleship we could find, no? Unless you're going for bigger.
My point is we don't know, I presume there were more than four or so classes of ship in the Sith armada.
Of course Vader's more powerful than Tyranus.
I'm glad we agree.
That's based on reputation, not the actual power. I mean, your quote outright talks about the legends of Korriban, lol.
So the Jedi are afraid to go there because of bed time stories? Right.
Of course a Jedi will react negatively to a DS nexus (even if it's weak) than a Sith.
That's not the point, the point is Kenobi was able to sense it profoundly from outer space, you know, thousands and thousands of kilometers away, I'm failing to see how that fits with your narrative of it being "pathetic."
Umm, that was Dooku projecting the illusions, which is why when he left, Obi-Wan felt the dark side retracting, the visions disappearing, etc.
Lol, read the passage again, you are referring to a completely different instance. This is in Dreshdae, long before they encounter the Sith Lord and long before Omega starts projecting illusions of Sith Lords using Dooku's power.

However if you can provide some evidence he was too responsible for this, I'm all ears.

One wonders how much of the discomfort and everything else the Jedi felt was up to Dooku, actually. After all, when Dooku used telekinesis, he was leaving behind pools of darkness, which is the probably the most noticeable thing about the nexus at this point.
Dooku's never known to have created such a powerful aura before so I doubt it, whereas there are parts of the text where the presence of the dark side is implicitly and explicitly linked to power of the buildings, and those who used to inhabit them.

The fact that the Jedi are repeatedly stated to be too afraid to go there because of said dark side presence, and it seems increasingly unlikely it was Dooku's doing.

And why wouldn't Dooku grow powerful enough to replicate the showing? He was allowed to peruse the Banite archives and owned at least an entire shelf of holocrons, and we know he got more powerful whenever he used one, not to mention his Force potential being enigmatic for even Yoda. It's not hard to imagine that he'd grow in power in the four remaining years of his life.
That doesn't mean he grew strong enough to replicate the feat, your just speculating. On the other hand no, its seems unlikely Dooku experienced a growth in power equal to that of a potent planetary nexus.

I'll respond tonight or tomorrow.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Smashing together several 75m+ ships with hilarious ease > disintegrating the smaller half of a 300m frigate and shielding it from re-entry with maximum effort.

What? Just how? No...

Can someone summarize what we think the ship sizes are, and why?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
What? Just how? No...

Easily smashing together 225-300m+ of ship material isn't better than disintegrating the smaller half of a 300m ship with maximum effort?

I think he was smashing together the destroyed pieces.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Can someone summarize what we think the ship sizes are, and why?

Can someone also quantify how powerful this Nexus was, otherwise any comparisons to Vader's unamped feats are meaningless.

Disinigration takes more energy than simply moving stuff unless Dooku was throwing the ships at supersonic speeds.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Then we have Marek manipulating an ISD, a vessel infinitely larger than the ones Dooku is playing with. And Vader pulling down a freighter, which are typically 30-40m long, rather than just shifting one, a dozen years before his prime. Personally I find Vader's superiority to a telekinetic powerhouse like Marek in general to be more compelling evidence of power.

Please explain how Vader is indicate to be Marek's superior. Eve if you take the cutscenes from TFUII as legitimate how does that apply to Marek who has demonstrated vastly superior feats to Starkiller?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Also, Starkiller breaks free of Vader's rag doll in that title, and in than proceeds to rag doll his master himself.

Please send this to me if you have it Ziggy.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Easily smashing together 225-300m+ of ship material isn't better than disintegrating the smaller half of a 300m ship with maximum effort?

Even in your fanon it isn't. But in reality neither was Dooku's feat with ease (and he didn't even smash them together, but to the wall in succession), nor Starkiller's with maximum effort.

How is smashing things together (even if twice the size) is more impressive than blowing it to billion pieces? Try smashing two coke cans together, then try to blow it to a billion piece.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku got knocked down and floored against Savage's Brute strength and Beastly TK. And later Choked. Vader's >> Savage in both those departments and is also properly trained and laughably more skilled.

Conclusion: Vader is Dooku's worst nightmare.

Really DP? Well, I can understand your point of viev for Vader>Dooku and Anakin, as it is somehow confirmed by statements (unlike feat during combat).
But to lowball Dooku that way, only to prove Vader's superiority? You always were better then that.
At first, we all know, that Savage at the end of that fight was ignored by both, Dooku and Ventress. He was taunted by them (not intentionaly), and attacked them while they were focused on each other. They were off-guard against him.
Second thought is, that if Savage's raw TK power > Dooku, then we should also accept Ventress, as Kenobi's and Skywalker's clear superior in terms of TK. Shouldn't we?
And my last point: All guys who fought Savage in S3 and partly S4 are victims of Savage's exaggerated feats. From season to season it's stated that he was more and more powerful... but wait!
S3 Savage:
- without a saber stomped Halsey
- overhelmed Dooku in sabers
- overhelmed Dooku in TK
- overhelmed Ventress in sabers or TK
- overhelmed Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time.. twice!
S4 Savage:
- overhelmed Kenobi in sabers (with small aid of Maul, his mere presence)
- overhlmed Ventress
- did as good as Kenobi and Maul in their 2v2 battle
S5 Savage:
- overhelmed Adi by pure strenght and raw power (but at the same time proved to be less skillful imo)
- got beaten by Kenobi, while being aided by Maul
- got stomped by Maul
- got stomped by Sidious

If a statements for Vader are as worthy as those for Savage, then... you know what's then, don't you? They are like ponits in the "Whose line is it anyway?", they doesn't matter.