Originally posted by Emperordmb
If we're dismissing the Revan novel becuz of Drew being in magical fairy land or whatever, then why not dismiss the feats of KOTOR II because Avellone is in some magical fairy land where the Force itself is inflated (he thinks most of the ancient Sith are powerful enough to drain planets and that most of these guys are beneath Vader)?You open a whole different set of issues once you pull this source ignoring shit.
He doesn't think they're below Vader with respect to power, only as characters. And besides, what's wrong with most of KotOR II being below Vader?
The Ancient Sith were depicted as insanely powerful (with regards to context), and their ability to drain planets is hardly insane when their mere deaths poison entire planets with immense dark side energies. And particularly at that time, when modern Sith weren't fleshed out (Vader, Dooku, Maul, Bane, etc.) or just didn't exist (Caedus, Krayt, Zannah, etc.)
KotOR II is the original source. You can't dismiss that. The Revan novel isn't dismissed just because it's a strange source, but because it contradicts KotOR II on everything. There's no need to dismiss the quote's validity, only dismiss the quote when applied in context to KotOR II as we know it, because it doesn't apply to that version of KotOR II.
It's also obvious that Drew isn't writing MW Revan as being far more powerful than somebody who can manipulate fleets and obliterate portions of capital ships with a simple outburst of energy. And we can see that in Revan's displays of telekinesis in the novel, and so on. The comparison simply isn't valid. There's nothing about ignoring, just applying it where it's right, and not applying it where it clearly doesn't apply. I've made my case. If you disagree, then so be it.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The text's description of them is true - they were former Jedi turned Sith Lords that assumed control of the remnants of Revan's Sith Empire. These points aren't disputable.
Sion was a Sith Marauder back from Exar Kun's army and Nihilus was at Malachor, but there is no mention of him being a Jedi.
And yes, Karpyshyn got everything wrong. He couldn't even be bothered to read a few wookipedia articles, much less play the game on which a significant part of his book rested on.
After reading the book I was actually thankful their names weren't Scion, Kreya, and Nihlus.
Originally posted by SunRazer
This is about Drew thinking that KotOR II took place five years later than it really did,
The novel (Revan) presents chain of events in Revan's story in two parts. The events of the first part take place before the events of KoTOR II and the events of the second part take place after.
- KoTOR (3956 BBY)
- Revan part I (3954 BBY)
- Unseen Unheard (3952 BBY)
- KoTOR II (3951 BBY)
- Revan part II (3950 BBY)
Originally posted by SunRazer
thinking that the Exile would get ill from experiencing something that she uniquely endured for a decade,
She visited Medriaas (a world completely devoid of the Force; Nathema) as a normal Force-user. Prolonged exposure to that environment would harm any mortal being. More importantly, she haven't experienced the Nathema-like environment anywhere else.
Malachor V was not a void in the Force.
The events of Malachor had left a mark on the Force; a wound that would not heal. Here, however, the Force was simply … gone. It was as if someone had ripped it away, leaving only an empty void behind.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Mention a source that asserts otherwise.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Drew thinking that Traya, Sion etc. turned to teachings that Malak uncovered,
Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan. Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands. Their relentless pursuit virtually wiped out the Order, and only those few who managed to flee or hide survived.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Much of that is accurate.
Revan and Malak visited Malachor V before Darth Traya; explored its landscapes to uncover ancient Sith artifacts and sources of knowledge. They also established a Sith Academy there. When Darth Traya visited Malachor V, the infrastructure of Revan's Sith Empire was already there, and she took charge of it.
Originally posted by SunRazer
that the Exile is some generic Jedi without the notable ability to form Force Bonds or anything of the sort,
Once he had tried to reach out to her with the Force. Serving in battle with someone formed a special bond; even across the breadth of the
galaxy he should have been able to get some vague sense of her presence. Yet he had felt nothing. The simplest explanation was that she had
become one with the Force, but Revan couldn’t allow himself to believe she was dead.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
&
Meetra had known Revan long before Bastila; she had answered his call to
go to war against the Mandalorians, and in doing so she became one of his most trusted advisers and closest friends. Bastila knew they had
shared a special bond not unlike that of Padawan and Master.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
She might have learned that ability from Revan. Or she might have learned earlier. The novel leaves this matter to your imagination.
Originally posted by SunRazer
that the Triumvirate were just a splinter faction of Jedi from after the Jedi Civil War,
It had been the Exile—Meetra Surik—who had taken up the fight against the rogue Jedi. Three years after Revan’s unsuccessful attempt to locate her, she had emerged on her own to oppose and eventually defeat Darth Traya.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Rogue Jedi = Darth Traya
Originally posted by SunRazer
and that there were somehow tens of thousands of Jedi remaining after the JCW for the Triumvirate to slaughter. As I said, he's dead wrong on everything KotOR II every time he writes something about it.
The Jedi Order could be operating on many worlds across the galaxy, some untouched by the war. Darth Malak destroyed the Jedi Academy on Dantooine, but that was not the end. Jedi Temple on Coruscant was apparently the primary recruitment base and functional during that time. We saw many Jedi participating in the Battle of Rakata Prime afterwards.
Moreover, padawans outnumber Jedi Knights and Masters by a large margin at any given time.
Originally posted by SunRazer
So I see no reason for it to apply to a medium that Drew has already shown such blatant disrespect and ignorance for. He hasn't got a single detail about the game right. Since you love to talk about Avellone's authorial intent, what makes you think that Karpyshyn's references to the game were made with the authorial intent of referring to Nihilus as depicted in KotOR II, or anything close?
Originally posted by SunRazer
As I said, MW Revan's command of the Force is far greater than the Nihilus who split away from the Jedi Order after the events of the Jedi Civil War and studied teachings that Malak had already uncovered. Which doesn't fit the Nihilus of KotOR II in any way, shape or form.
Revan might have been capable of affecting the external environment on planetary-scale with some of his abilities or close. This is not a far-fetched assumption. Even Darth Malgus suspected as much.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And I take you that you agree with me on all the other points relating to how KotOR II supports Nihilus > Revan as opposed to the other way around?
---
On a side note, I rate both Darth Nihilus and Revan really high. I have argued for both in various threads.
Originally posted by UnbowedNihilus was a Jedi before and during the Battle of Malachor V. Then he turned Sith after the battle when he had his hunger.
No, they weren't. Only Kreia was.Sion was a Sith Marauder back from Exar Kun's army and Nihilus was at Malachor, but there is no mention of him being a Jedi.
And yes, Karpyshyn got everything wrong. He couldn't even be bothered to read a few wookipedia articles, much less play the game on which a significant part of his book rested on.
After reading the book I was actually thankful their names weren't Scion, Kreya, and Nihlus.
Originally posted by darthbane77
Nihilus was a Jedi before and during the Battle of Malachor V. Then he turned Sith after the battle when he had his hunger.
If he was a Jedi it would have been mentioned. In fact, it seems to me that by referring to him as "a man" and mentioning that he lost his family, they went around their way to imply he wasn't a Jedi.
He probably was either a Republic soldier with undiscovered Force potential, much like Atton, or was from a world conquered by the Mandalorians and forced into their service for logistical support, like Mira and her folks.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t634415.html
Originally posted by UnbowedYeah I just looked into it, seems I was wrong. He had to at least have been Force Sensitive at the time though, even if he wasn't a Jedi.
There is no mention of him being a a Jedi. Just that "the man" who became Nihilus lost his family and friends on Malachor.If he was a Jedi it would have been mentioned. In fact, it seems to me that by referring to him as "a man" and mentioning that he lost his family, they went around their way to imply he wasn't a Jedi.
He probably was either a Republic soldier with undiscovered Force potential, much like Atton, or was from a world conquered by the Mandalorians and forced into their service for logistical support, like Mira and her folks.
@Legend - You know I'm disputing what the Revan novel claims, right? Quoting the passage again doesn't help your case.
The novel (Revan) presents chain of events in Revan's story in two parts. The events of the first part take place before the events of KoTOR II and the events of the second part take place after.
Right, and even you recognized that KotOR II takes place five years after the original KotOR. Yet in Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith, Drew claims that:
Revan was then unleashed against Malak, hunting him across the galaxy before ultimately finding and slaying the Dark Lord.The conflict continued for another decade as other Dark Lords tried to rise up and fill the void left by Malak and Revan. Led by Darths, Traya, Nihilus and Sion, the Jedi were hunted to extinction, and the Jedi Council was forced into hiding.
-- Insider 88: Heritage of the Sith
How could it be an entire decade between the rise of Traya and co. if they died only five years after KotOR? Drew didn't research the game, that's how.
Jedi Exile was no longer a wound in the Force during the events of Revan part II. Her connection to the Force had healed at some point earlier.She visited Medriaas (a world completely devoid of the Force; Nathema) as a normal Force-user. Prolonged exposure to that environment would harm any mortal being. More importantly, she haven't experienced the Nathema-like environment anywhere else.
Nathema is a world where the Force simply couldn't be felt altogether. And guess what the Exile spent ten years doing? Not feeling the Force. Why is she suddenly getting sick over it now? The fact that she's no longer a Wound in the Force doesn't make a difference. She spent ten years walking the galaxy without feeling the Force.
Revan and Malak visited Malachor V before Darth Traya; explored its landscapes to uncover ancient Sith artifacts and sources of knowledge. They also established a Sith Academy there. When Darth Traya visited Malachor V, the infrastructure of Revan's Sith Empire was already there, and she took charge of it.
They didn't establish the Academy there, they found one. Sion outright states that the Sith Academy existed long before the Mandalorian Wars.
More importantly, the fact that Revan discovered most of the things that Traya and the others did may well be possible. Malak, however? That seems unlikely. Malak never learned the power of Force Drain (no, the Jedi in the Stasis Machines do not count), nor did he learn the ability to create Wounds in the Force to mask his presence. The teachings about Malachor V were about masking your presence through echoes in the Force (which is why Nihilus was never sensed as he approached Katarr, as we know in Unseen, Unheard), which Malak never once did. In fact, Bastila felt his presence as he approached the Leviathan in KotOR. Malachor V's teachings were also about leaving Wounds in the Force after striking, which again, Malak never did.
If Malak knew any of these powers, why would he never use them?
The novel neither confirms or denies it. Here are the revelations:
I'm aware of that quote. However, the fact that Surik doesn't form any Force Bonds to Revan later in the novel, or to Scourge, is a problem. In KotOR II, the Exile was forming Bonds near-instantly with people she met, and with unnatural strength as well. It was one of her great strengths, and that fact was completely ignored in the novel.
And no, she didn't learn it from Revan. She was exhibiting the power even before she joined the Mandalorian Wars, as stated by Vrook Lamar in KotOR II:
"Still... your ability to form such connections, to influence others, was always a subject of discussion, even when you were a student here."-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
"...whatever the other Padawans see her do, they are quick to do the same..."-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
This is the statement:
It had been the Exile—Meetra Surik—who had taken up the fight against the rogue Jedi. Three years after Revan’s unsuccessful attempt to locate her, she had emerged on her own to oppose and eventually defeat Darth Traya.
Actually, the quote I was talking about was this:
After Malak had been defeated, Bastila, like most other citizens of the Republic, had hoped to enjoy many decades of peace. Instead, a group of rogue Jedi had broken away from the Order, plunging the galaxy once more into civil war.Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan. Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before.
-- The Old Republic: Revan
And that's wrong. The novel alleges that the Sith Triumvirate was entirely comprised of Jedi who broke away from the Jedi Order after the Jedi Civil War. Which isn't true, as per the KotORCG:
Coming to the Sith Empire's remnants as Revan's master, the remaining troopers also pledged her loyalty to her.-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
The Sith Empire crumbles, and within months former Sith Lords have declared themselves the masters of much smaller domains. As the Sith squabble among themselves, fighting over the scraps of the Sith Empire, Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus engage in a campaign to wipe out the Jedi, with great success...The skirmishes between the Sith warlords continue for nearly four years until Darth Sion Nihilus attempt to reunite the Sith under a single banner of strong leadership.
-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
During the Dark Wars, surviving Sith students submit to the Sith Triumvirate.-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
So we know that it wasn't just a bunch of Jedi who left the Order to join the Triumvirate - it was also the surviving Sith from Revan's Empire. And in fact, that would've comprised the majority. Nowhere it is said that Jedi ever defected to the Triumvirate after the War (there's no reason to, anyway), so that's just something else Drew made up.
Besides, Kreia never "went rogue" (which is defined as the cessation of following orders from higher authorities). She was exiled from the Jedi Order:
"That is why Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall."-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Granted, Kreia was lying about that fact, since the game indicates that she's Arren Kae, who was exiled over the shame of her birth:
"Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed."-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Chris Avellone claims that Brianna is 25 in KotOR II (http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/25061-age-of-the-characters/), so that would mean that if Kreia/Kae was exiled about a decade after the birth, that would mean it was fifteen years before KotOR II. 15 years before 3951 BBY would be 3966 BBY, which is shortly before the big conflicts in the Mandalorian Wars. And that make sense, since the quote I posted above states that Kae joined the Mandalorian Wars after she was exiled.
If Kreia was exiled before the end of the Mandalorian Wars, how could she have gone rogue from the Jedi after the end of the Jedi Civil War? Because Drew doesn't research, that's why.
Not the first time a novel has contradicted other mediums.The Jedi Order could be operating on many worlds across the galaxy, some untouched by the war. Darth Malak destroyed the Jedi Academy on Dantooine, but that was not the end. Jedi Temple on Coruscant was apparently the primary recruitment base and functional during that time. We saw many Jedi participating in the Battle of Rakata Prime afterwards.
Moreover, padawans outnumber Jedi Knights and Masters by a large margin at any given time.
Many padawans would've died in the bombing of the training academy on Dantooine, but regardless, we know there were barely, or even less than a hundred Jedi remaining after KotOR. Not tens of thousands.
"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Where once there were thousands, by the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi Knights remained.-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
With their numbers already thinned by the war with DARTH MALAK, the Jedi Order is reduced to less than one hundred surviving Jedi Knights.-- Chronicles of the Old Republic
To divine the identities of their hunters, Master Tokare meets with most of the hundred surviving Jedi on the planet Katarr.-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
So again, Drew doesn't know what he's talking about.
Revan might have been capable of affecting the external environment on planetary-scale with some of his abilities or close. This is not a far-fetched assumption. Even Darth Malgus suspected as much.
Revan affecting planets with his powers under dubious circumstances isn't of interest to me. What's of interest to me are Revan's telekinetic showings in the novel, which, if he's far, far more powerful than Nihilus by the Mandalorian Wars alone, don't match up with his purported power. Nihilus in KotOR II can disintegrate parts of capital ships with his outbursts of power. He holds together a fleet of 1200m ships with his will alone, not even a gesture. Revan never once exhibits that sort of power in the novel. His telekinetic feats are more of the sort of throwing sarcophagus lids and collapsing archways, which is pretty pitiful in comparison (not saying that they represent his best, of course). Not to mention that Drew Karpyshyn claims that Revan might be able to collapse a building under optimal circumstances. For those of you who take his quotes on Malak > Revan etc. seriously, including Ant, then clearly Drew doesn't think Revan can manipulate a fleet of 1200m ships.
At the end of the day, Drew gets facts from KotOR II wrong over and over again. He doesn't even think the Triumvirate that the Exile faced were anything like those in KotOR II. With such gaping disparities between KotOR II and Drew's version of KotOR II, I'm not seeing much of a reason to take his comment about MW Revan being far more powerful than characters who can manipulate fleets seriously when it's obvious that Drew clearly doesn't think that Revan wields that sort of power anyway.