Darth Nihilus vs DE Palpatine [TK only]

Ummm okay, I know the ways in which he is different. Which doesn't include ANY reference to him not gaining in power as time progresses as we've seen for almost all jedi and sith. That is the difference I'm referring to.

The Exile also was a wound of force as Nihilus, and her powers obviously still increased.

I'm aware, but it's simply a matter of diminishing returns. The Exile grows more powerful from her wound yes, even more so if you take the DS path, but at the same time her wound grows ever larger, so it stands to reason that eventually the power the wound was consuming would outweigh the power she was gaining because of it.

Beni, you already conceded to me on another thread that Nihilus was growing more powerful. Do you now have a counter for the point I raised?

Either way, Sidious also grew more powerful after his Lusankya showing.

Oh yeah, that was that quote again? I'll find it...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Either way, Sidious also grew more powerful after his Lusankya showing.

What showing?

You don't need to be in denial.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh yeah, that was that quote again? I'll find it...

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't think it refers to Drain, since Kreia explicitly states that he will eventually "become too powerful for us to stop". Kreia knowingly engaged Nihilus with the Exile, since the latter was immune to his Drain, regardless of how powerful it was. On the other hand, if Nihilus was simply more powerful, he would have other avenues to win (ie. TK).

They can use it to consume other Force Sensitives and at the highest pinnacle of power, use it to consume anything that lives. These Sith we face... they have learned how to do this. It is a technique that has been lost for some time, not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other Force Sensitives and at the highest pinnacle of power, use it to consume anything that lives. The blind seer her Master has harnessed this technique, and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it. And the teaching must die with him, or else all life will be placed in jeopardy.

That's not where the quote is from, lol. You're quoting from the DS Enclave scene, whereas I'm quoting from the scene on the Ebon Hawk where she discusses him with you.

"There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped, the breach must sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can hope to stop."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Ah fair enough. However I still find that difficult to reconcile with this:

"{Chiding} Power? Do you think so? {Shakes head} You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others--his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

There is a distinct difference between becoming an unstoppable power, and being doomed to inevitable oblivion. mmm

EDIT: The latter is also supported by Visas' own observations:

"The Master suffers... If he can not feed, then the hunger begins to consume him. The planet Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain himself a while longer."

Glad we've agreed that they're not inclusive. Or synonymous.

...

The problem here is that if Nihilus was indeed growing steadily more powerful, his desire to feed would be an indulgence, rather than a necessity.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

EDIT: The latter is also supported by Visas' own observations:

Yeah. But we've already agreed that it's not synonymous, and not really relevant to fight scenarios like this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The problem here is that if Nihilus was indeed growing steadily more powerful, his desire to feed would be an indulgence, rather than a necessity.

Not really. Each successive use of Drain empowers him but at the cost of taking control of him to a greater degree.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah. But we've already agreed that it's not synonymous, and not really relevant to fight scenarios like this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. Each successive use of Drain empowers him but at the cost of taking control of him to a greater degree.

However if each successive use of drain did indeed empower him, then he'd become more and more able to satiate his hunger, but the reverse is true.

The candle that burns twice as hot burns half as long. His power was killing him faster and requiring greater nourishment as it grew, but it did grow.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Synonymous with what, his Force abilities? I would disagree, I think its implicit that Nihilus was weakened by this little trap Kreia set, and a further denial of satiation at the hands of the Exile only weakened him more.But that's not what its doing, its devouring him, this is made clear by various sources, and its what presses him to feed, to replace his lost energies.

The trap Kreia set in of itself didn't weaken Nihilus, lol. Nowhere is that suggested. As for Nihilus being weakened by the Exile, it wasn't so much the denial of satiation as it was the negation of his Drain, which I assume I would assume requires considerable effort and its use without any sort of reward would've exhausted Nihilus somewhat. The KotORCG describes him as being "psychically starved" when his powers are repelled.

Likewise, nowhere is it suggested that the hunger is reducing his power. This isn't just a matter of Force reserves, but a contest of wills. If it helps you to think of it like this, just imagine that it's Nihilus vs Drain in terms of willpower. Every time Nihilus uses Drain, Drain wins, and Nihilus succumbs in that battle of willpower, slowly. When Drain wins that battle completely, then Nihilus is a goner. Likewise, Drain starts to win whenever Nihilus "starves", or goes without feeding for a period of time. In other words, Nihilus is screwed - Drain wins either way. That's kind of how his character works.

Nowhere is it suggested that Nihilus' Force energies are lost with each Drain - Kreia outright says that he will feed until nothing is left, which is when he starves to oblivion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The trap Kreia set in of itself didn't weaken Nihilus, lol. Nowhere is that suggested.

As for Nihilus being weakened by the Exile, it wasn't so much the denial of satiation as it was the negation of his Drain, which I assume I would assume requires considerable effort and its use without effect would've exhausted Nihilus somewhat. The KotORCG describes him as being "psychically starved" when his powers are repelled.

Likewise, nowhere is it suggested that the hunger is reducing his power. This isn't just a matter of Force reserves, but a contest of wills. If it helps you to think of it like this, just imagine that it's Nihilus vs Drain in terms of willpower. Every time Nihilus uses Drain, Drain wins, and Nihilus succumbs in that battle of willpower, slowly. When Drain wins that battle completely, then Nihilus is screwed.

This "willpower" shit is just something you've shoehorned it, it was eating him, literally. Losing a battle of wills doesn't make your body disintegrate lmao.

Regardless I find Neph's analogy sense making, it stands to reason that Nihilus power would fluctuate in a series of peaks and troughs, but still be overall ascending. Maybe.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nowhere is it suggested that Nihilus' Force energies are lost with each Drain - Kreia outright says that he will feed until nothing is left, which is when he starves to oblivion.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's suggested right there, Nihilus suffering obviously =/= not good, and indeed its no coincidence that Telos just so happens to be a dead world (much like the Exile was herself a dead spot), of course that choice was deliberate.

Well, it was said that he could feed on it for temporary sustenance. Either way, the trap itself didn't actually make Nihilus weaker. It just wasn't the chance for the satiation that he wanted.

Well you just disproved your own point there, "starved" needs no further explanation.

Him being weaker when he uses Drain without getting any sort of reward doesn't mean that he's constantly getting weaker.

Being gobbled up by a wound would have that effect, its just the logical conclusion to make.

What are you talking about?

This "willpower" shit is just something you've shoehorned it, it was eating him, literally. Losing a battle of wills doesn't make your body disintegrate lmao.

Nihilus' body had disintegrated already, yet it was still "devouring" him. At the time of the game, he's pretty much just will in an armor. It's obvious what the nature of this devouring is. It's addicting, which would mean that it was slowly forcing him to use it more and more. That seems like a willpower thing to me.

Regardless I find Neph's analogy sense making, it stands to reason that Nihilus power would fluctuate in a series of peaks and troughs, but still be overall ascending. Maybe.Lol.

Whatever you want to use to rationalize it, lol. My point is that there's nothing outright contradicting Kreia's point about Nihilus getting stronger. You're just bringing in random circumstantial stuff and speculation.