Captain Marvel (Billy) vs. Silver Surfer

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Basically, has he ever gone beyond this:

And actually gone through with it?

To use the Hulk (again, lol) - how many times has an opponent said: 'finally, you now meet my ultimate weapon, and your ultimate doom! I have designed a weapon that can destroy even you!'

And then the whole thing falls to pieces when all is said and done>

Doesn't even have to be the Hulk. Anyone else. Lex with Supes. Joker and his 'ultimate traps' against Batman. Those kinda things.

Originally posted by darthgoober
While strength and muscle speed are connected(which would explain why speedsters sometimes have difficulty dodging his blows), they're not necessarily proportionate(especially in comics since Flash would be stronger than Supes) so it's a logical fallacy to say that Hulk can move at light speed.

How much energy does it need to get to lightspeed? Infinite? What is the strength limit of the Hulk?

Even if we ignore lightspeed (hence my caveat, 'or at least, speeds approaching'😉, with his arm span, the Hulk should be able to helicopter around, no?

After all, let's take his highest strength feats. Highest ever. The energy needed to lift a 1000lb mass would be negligible compared to that.

As for Marvel not going to the trouble of spelling out the whole scan/execute scene... they really don't have to when Surfer knws about and exploits people's weaknesses WITHOUT showing him scanning for them. And to use your common sense approach to Flash doing 1 IMP then another, Surfer simply detects the weakness(as he's shown) and then exploits it. It's not a stretch OR out of character.

And just because they're super speed punches doesn't mean they're necessarily high mass IMP's. The speed force is quirky that way. Also, while they are pre crisis characters, it should be noted that PC characters were toned down even before COIE happened. Supes hadn't been written at his heights for years before Crisis from what I've heard from Pr. That's not to downplay the feat because it's obviously still impressive, it's just to say that Supes hadn't been written at his "creation destroying speeds" in years at that point.

Supes is not in that scan, Pre Crisis Billy and MM are, though. Regardless, it still shows that Wally is moving so fast, characters with superspeed and supersenses of their own are unable to detect him.

And hence my other caveat: spamming multiple POWERFUL punches. Agreed, they may not be IMPs - but at the very least, I can say he can spam multiple punches that are so powerful, they destroy a more powerful version of the AM's armour. Someone who has durability above that of a White Martian.

He absolutely has gone beyond a threat, I gave you a list of times when Surfer actually followed through on exploiting weaknesses/vulnerabilities of his opponents... do you really think I'm lying about them? If you're that skeptical, you can prob see several of them on the link to the Surfer page that was posted earlier.

But without scanning and detecting their weakness, as has been posited.

I guess i'm not sure whats being asked. The Surfer plainly tells Gladiator that's he's aware of his weakness and he could use that to defeat him. Does he,,,no, but he could have. Is that not proof enough.

Originally posted by tkitna
I guess i'm not sure whats being asked. The Surfer plainly tells Gladiator that's he's aware of his weakness and he could use that to defeat him. Does he,,,no, but he could have. Is that not proof enough.

Because until he actually does so, its hyperbole, and we're just using fanfic Surfer.

As he has never actually done so. He could have...and it could have backfired on him for whatever reason.

As I've said, how many times have characters said they could do XYZ...until they were actually tested on it.

Hulk can, logically, fly by spinning his arms. Am I allowed to say Hulk flies? No.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because until he actually does so, its hyperbole, and we're just using fanfic Surfer.

As he has never actually done so. He could have...and it could have backfired on him for whatever reason.

As I've said, how many times have characters said they could do XYZ...until they were actually tested on it.

Hulk can, logically, fly by spinning his arms. Am I allowed to say Hulk flies? No.

Its right on panel though with the characters involved so i'm not sure how much hyperbole can possibly be used. I could see your point if Gladiator called him on it thinking he was bluffing or Lilandra even, but even they knew it to be true. It is what it is, but I just feel its a weak argument.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

How much energy does it need to get to lightspeed? Infinite? What is the strength limit of the Hulk?

Even if we ignore lightspeed (hence my caveat, 'or at least, speeds approaching'😉, with his arm span, the Hulk should be able to helicopter around, no?

After all, let's take his highest strength feats. Highest ever. The energy needed to lift a 1000lb mass would be negligible compared to that. [/B]

Hey who knows what he can do with the correct writer lol. Anyway, you're trying to compare something with NOTHING to base it on but real world physics with something that actually has some basis on panel. The fact that Surfer threatened Glads with it is some reason to think he could. The fact that he's actually used other opponents weaknesses against is them enough to think that he'd do so AGAIN. You're trying to argue as if Glad's is the only time it's been an issue, he's used frequencies of energy that opponents are vulnerable against before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Supes is not in that scan, Pre Crisis Billy and MM are, though. Regardless, it still shows that Wally is moving so fast, characters with superspeed and supersenses of their own are unable to detect him.

And hence my other caveat: spamming multiple POWERFUL punches. Agreed, they may not be IMPs - but at the very least, I can say he can spam multiple punches that are so powerful, they destroy a more powerful version of the AM's armour. Someone who has durability above that of a White Martian. [/B]

I never said he couldn't throw multiple powerful punches at superspeed... Hell I never said that he couldn't throw multiple IMPs... I said we'd have to consider him unwilling/unable to do so IF we applied the same logic to him that you're trying to apply to Surfer. I'm of the opinion that Flash CAN/WILL throw multiple IMPs in a fight. I'm also of the opinion that Hal Jorden would create a large bug to scare an opponent who had a petrifying fear of bugs even though I've never seen him do that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But without scanning and detecting their weakness, as has been posited. [/B]

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because until he actually does so, its hyperbole, and we're just using fanfic Surfer.

As he has never actually done so. He could have...and it could have backfired on him for whatever reason.

As I've said, how many times have characters said they could do XYZ...until they were actually tested on it.

Hulk can, logically, fly by spinning his arms. Am I allowed to say Hulk flies? No.

I think the point being missed is that Gladiator heeded that warning given to him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sure Supes can do that... assuming he knows the proper harmonic frequency of the being in question.

He can hear the song of the multiverse. Deducing the harmonic frequency of a single being is nothing compared to that.

Though cold blooded worse than murder certainly isn't Supes's style.

But he already did it to Darkseid. So it's completely viable to him.

Krosakis absorbed Glad's power, it's never mentioned that he copied Glad's physiology. It's not like the guy was turning silver when he started absorbing Surfer's energy.

That's complete bullshit. When someone absorbs Superman's powers, they also absorb his kryptonite and red sun weakness. Got any proof that Krosakis didn't have his weakness?

He most certainly did use weakness exploitation against Spectrum. Not the ultraviolet thing, but he screwed up Spectrum's ring with a single blast. If anything that fight further indicates that weakness exploitation IS in character for Surfer.

He didn't. He feed his ring the same power back causing a feedback.

That's not weakness exploitation from any angle you doofus.

In the scan tkitna posted where he's blasting the Hulk and the Hulk's screaming "You're killing me". You know... the one you already acknowledged as being a feat of energy manipulation rather than raw power.

Hulk was highly unstable there and had no control over his power. And Surfer was draining him if you bothered to check the comic.

Previously hulk walked through his blast.

Originally posted by darthgoober
While strength and muscle speed are connected(which would explain why speedsters sometimes have difficulty dodging his blows), they're not necessarily proportionate(especially in comics since Flash would be stronger than Supes) so it's a logical fallacy to say that Hulk can move at light speed.

As for Marvel not going to the trouble of spelling out the whole scan/execute scene... they really don't have to when Surfer knws about and exploits people's weaknesses WITHOUT showing him scanning for them. And to use your common sense approach to Flash doing 1 IMP then another, Surfer simply detects the weakness(as he's shown) and then exploits it. It's not a stretch OR out of character.

And just because they're super speed punches doesn't mean they're necessarily high mass IMP's. The speed force is quirky that way. Also, while they are pre crisis characters, it should be noted that PC characters were toned down even before COIE happened. Supes hadn't been written at his heights for years before Crisis from what I've heard from Pr. That's not to downplay the feat because it's obviously still impressive, it's just to say that Supes hadn't been written at his "creation destroying speeds" in years at that point.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/28324653/Silver_Surfer_2016-_005-015.jpg.html

Oops, he really forgot he had a weakness detector installed in his head by internet fanboys.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He can hear the song of the multiverse. Deducing the harmonic frequency of a single being is nothing compared to that.

But he already did it to Darkseid. So it's completely viable to him.

You're acting as though him being willing to do it to the worst baddie in his universe during a dire situation is proof that he'll up and do it in any old forum fight... doesn't work like that. Just because a preacher is willing to kill a terrorist who's in the process of killing his entire congregation doesn't make it "in character" for him to try to kill any old Joe on the street who starts a fist fight. Surfer's prob killed way more folks than Supes, it doesn't mean he's going into every forum fight with murderous intent.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's complete bullshit. When someone absorbs Superman's powers, they also absorb his kryptonite and red sun weakness. Got any proof that Krosakis didn't have his weakness?

Originally posted by abhilegend
He didn't. He feed his ring the same power back causing a feedback.

That's not weakness exploitation from any angle you doofus.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hulk was highly unstable there and had no control over his power. And Surfer was draining him if you bothered to check the comic.

Previously hulk walked through his blast.

If he's draining Hulk by blasting him(and he's blasting Hulk when Hulk screams that Surfer's killing him), then he's obviously somehow using a specific frequency of energy/radiation to do so. Hulk's condition when Surfer was doing is irrelevant because the discussion is to whether or not it's in character for Surfer to do something like that to exploit an opponent's weakness.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Here is Surfer threatening to weakness exploit someone. Just he needs to find the weakness first.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/28324653/Silver_Surfer_2016-_005-015.jpg.html

Oops, he really forgot he had a weakness detector installed in his head by internet fanboys.

I believe that if Surfer actually detected a weakness in someone he will be willing to use it (if its not too devastating of course).

The problem is will he attempt to detect weaknesses mid battle?
He doesn't usually do this for several reasons. Peer Characters don't give him the opportunity to. And sometimes he just doesn't think of it.

We have to be careful with Surfer. Otherwise he should beat Thanos every time by opening singularities in his eyes or brain, sucking his soul, using his ftl perceptions to view Thanos in slow motion, etc.

In this fight I believe that Surfer would be reduced to a blaster not by choice. The speed in which CM attacks would prevent Surfer from thinking about and activating exotic abilities.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're acting as though him being willing to do it to the worst baddie in his universe during a dire situation is proof that he'll up and do it in any old forum fight... doesn't work like that. Just because a preacher is willing to kill a terrorist who's in the process of killing his entire congregation doesn't make it "in character" for him to try to kill any old Joe on the street who starts a fist fight. Surfer's prob killed way more folks than Supes, it doesn't mean he's going into every forum fight with murderous intent.

See, this is the famous Darthgoober double standard. "It doesn't matter if Superman has done it, he wouldn't use it. Oh right, let me tell you how Surfer is going to weakness exploit when he has never done so in comics."

And yes, Superman would do it in forum just as likely if not more than Surfer using his never used cosmic awareness to weakness exploitation.

You're asking for proof of a negative. No indication was given that he copied Glad's physiology. And even if we assumed that he did(which would be ridiculous) there's no proof that Glad's would still posses that weakness when he possessed the Enigma Force.

So you have no proof of eithe of your claims. Good to know.

Something his ring was obviously particularly vulnerable to that he did with specific intent... ergo, weakness exploitation.

First, its a prism. And no, it isn't vulnerable to feedback. Its an energy manipulation feat, not a weakness exploitation.

You are doing some fine mental gymnastic there.

If he's draining Hulk by blasting him(and he's blasting Hulk when Hulk screams that Surfer's killing him), then he's obviously somehow using a specific frequency of energy/radiation to do so.

That's some bullshit right there. He is draining Hulk. Nothing more.

Hulk's condition when Surfer was doing is irrelevant because the discussion is to whether or not it's in character for Surfer to do something like that to exploit an opponent's weakness.

Its not. And Hulk's condition is totally relevant as Hulk not having control over his power was a central point in Hulk comics and Surfer trying to drain it away and failing is just one more example of Surfer unable to beat a character using energy manipulation.

Not weakness exploitation mind you.

Showing an instance where a power's not used as it should be isn't proof that the power doesn't exist, it's the whole reason the "No PIS" rule was created. Otherwise every instance of Flash being hit at sub-light speeds would be legitimate proof of Flash not being able to move/react at lightspeed. And I know that you personally refuse to accept the "no PIS" rules as applying to anything other than Superspeed but the fact of the matter is that it DOES. If you doubt such a thing, just ask Pr.

It would be PIS if you can show a single instance of Surfer instantly knowing a character's weakness and defeating him using it. Another example BTW. Warrior one overpowers Surfer and Dawn has to deduce his weakness and tell to Surfer.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, because when surfer gets overpowered, he automatically resorts to weakness exploitation. Right.

That non existent cosmic awareness+weakness exploitation combo would be so great in such a scenario.

Flash has feats of such instances. Surfer doesn't has a single weakness exploitation feat.

Deal with it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
See, this is the famous Darthgoober double standard. "It doesn't matter if Superman has done it, he wouldn't use it. Oh right, let me tell you how Surfer is going to weakness exploit when he has never done so in comics."

And yes, Superman would do it in forum just as likely if not more than Surfer using his never used cosmic awareness to weakness exploitation.

It's no double standard, I'm applying equal standards to both characters. The tactic isn't "in character" for Supes because it goes against his established morality. By the same token, if Bat's were to fight Bullseye inside a gunstore it would be out of character for Bats to shoot him with a handgun even though he shot Darkseid.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So you have no proof of eithe of your claims. Good to know.

Originally posted by abhilegend
First, its a prism. And no, it isn't vulnerable to feedback. Its an energy manipulation feat, not a weakness exploitation.

You are doing some fine mental gymnastic there.

It obviously IS vulnerable to it, because it was one shotted by the tactic.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's some bullshit right there. He is draining Hulk. Nothing more.

There's no depiction of energy flowing from Hulk into Surfer, it's clearly depicted as a blast going from Surfer to Hulk. Ergo, Surfer's using a blast of energy designed to do the deed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its not. And Hulk's condition is totally relevant as Hulk not having control over his power was a central point in Hulk comics and Surfer trying to drain it away and failing is just one more example of Surfer unable to beat a character using energy manipulation.

Not weakness exploitation mind you.

It's specifically mentioned that the reason it didn't work was because of Hulk and Banner being separated/Banner being dead.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It would be PIS if you can show a single instance of Surfer instantly knowing a character's weakness and defeating him using it. Another example BTW. Warrior one overpowers Surfer and Dawn has to deduce his weakness and tell to Surfer.

He doesn't gotta do anything instantly, it's just got to be done.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That non existent cosmic awareness+weakness exploitation combo would be so great in such a scenario

Supes's "lightspeed flight" would have been useful when he couldn't catch those bullets before they hit those soldiers... see how ridiculous your logic is?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Flash has feats of such instances. Surfer doesn't has a single weakness exploitation feat.

Deal with it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's no double standard, I'm applying equal standards to both characters. The tactic isn't "in character" for Supes because it goes against his established morality. By the same token, if Bat's were to fight Bullseye inside a gunstore it would be out of character for Bats to shoot him with a handgun even though he shot Darkseid.

Superman will kill if necessary. Batman made a once in lifetime exception to kill God of Evil.

Superman has no such rules. Take example of Doomsday.

I'm not the one making a claim, you are. You're claiming that Glads physiology was copied, I'm pointing out that there's no proof that it was.

Yes, and strontian physiology includes the radiation weakness.

It's a procedure by which Gladiator gets his powers. If Krosakis had his power, he had his weakness. No two ways about it.

It obviously IS vulnerable to it, because it was one shotted by the tactic.

That's again bullshit. If Superman oneshotted Despero with HV, it doesn't means Despero has a weakness to HV.

There's no depiction of energy flowing from Hulk into Surfer, it's clearly depicted as a blast going from Surfer to Hulk. Ergo, Surfer's using a blast of energy designed to do the deed.

Again bullshit. It matters little what art shows, it was energy drain. Nothing more.

It's specifically mentioned that the reason it didn't work was because of Hulk and Banner being separated/Banner being dead.

Yes, that's why Hulk didn't turn into banner. Surfer failed to fully drain hulk on his own.

He doesn't gotta do anything instantly, it's just got to be done.

Before or after he gets punched in the mouth?

Supes's "lightspeed flight" would have been useful when he couldn't catch those bullets before they hit those soldiers... see how ridiculous your logic is?

Superman has done lightspeed flight more than once.

Surfer has never done anything you say about weakness exploitation. Your red herrings are amusing.

Yeah Surfer does... that's an outright silly thing to say. Hell even you've acknowledged his ability to drain opponents internal energy... THAT'S

weakness exploitation.

No, that's energy Manipulation.

Surfer doesn't do weakness exploitation.

Deal with it.

Fine, Billy uses the Wisdom of Solomon and scans Surfer for weaknesses, then beats him....

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman will kill if necessary. Batman made a once in lifetime exception to kill God of Evil.

Superman has no such rules. Take example of Doomsday.

Oh surely you're not saying that Supes is a killer. As I pointed out, Surfer's prob killed a fair amount more characters than Supes but it doesn't mean he approaches every forum fight with killer intent

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, and strontian physiology includes the radiation weakness.

It's a procedure by which Gladiator gets his powers. If Krosakis had his power, he had his weakness. No two ways about it.

There's no proof he copied Glad's physiology. The guy was an energy drainer, not a form copier.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's again bullshit. If Superman oneshotted Despero with HV, it doesn't means Despero has a weakness to HV.

If the HV had "shorted out" Despereo it could absolutely be said that he had a weakness against it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Again bullshit. It matters little what art shows, it was energy drain. Nothing more.

It absolutely matters what the art shows...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, that's why Hulk didn't turn into banner. Surfer failed to fully drain hulk on his own.

He was absolutely being drained though, that's why Hulk said Surfer was killing him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Before or after he gets punched in the mouth?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman has done lightspeed flight more than once.

Surfer has never done anything you say about weakness exploitation. Your red herrings are amusing.

And Surfer's used weakness exploitation more than once. You're just not the type who can ever concede a point when you're discussing Surfer.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, that's energy Manipulation.

Surfer doesn't do weakness exploitation.

Deal with it.

A weakness to energy manipulation is absolutely a thing for some characters, and if Surfer's using it against an opponent it's absolutely weakness exploitation. Now you're just acting obtuse...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fine, Billy uses the Wisdom of Solomon and scans Surfer for weaknesses, then beats him....

Hey I got no problem with the idea that Billy may be able to detect weaknesses in his opponents. Though it doesn't seem that it'd really pick up on anything of use from Surfer given Billy's limited options.