Ood Bnar Comparison: DE Luke vs Kun

Started by Beniboybling5 pages

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why does that matter? He got caught in his dumb cape and his giant shoulderpads made standing back up difficult. Who cares.
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It matters because we have a scene that doesn't make sense. Not only is Kun on the ground while the Massassi is standing, but the Massassi was thrown in the opposite direction, yet still Kun hasn't gotten up by the time he gets up and moves over to him.

You not actually suggesting that a random Massassi has better force defenses than Exar Kun, are you? Please tell me you are, I'd love to bust out the popcorn as we watch your credibility evaporate.
Nope, I was just waiting for you to grasp the problem. The solution being either that 1. the energy Bnar unleashed was directed at Kun 2. it was simply an illustration error.

The alternative, as you've worked out, isn't particularly appealing. And only makes Kun look worse.

They match the background too well to say that. There's no indication that they're motion lines, you've just been assuming that they are. If you have some proof that they aren't part of the background, I suggest you post it or move on.
I'm not even sure what that is in the background so I can't agree on that, otherwise no, there are several lines that don't really need to be there. Particularly above his head and wrist.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
[B]On his face perhaps? Need I really explain point by point what a grimace looks like?

So this is your red handed evidence that Kun is injured. A fairly neutral expression masked by brow line shadow. Oh I guess, Kun must be injured in many other panels that depict this expression. You might have a point here if there was some dialogue that depicted pain, a quick grunt or exhalation of breath, but seen as those are glaringly absent, you're left clutching straws that don't exist.

Because they are not superhuman being of tremendous strength? Kun shouldn't need support to stand lol.

Well it's pretty obvious he doesn't need any support to stand, seen as he does so in the same page within the timeframe of two seconds. On the other hand, I doubt he's going to use any measure of superhuman strength just to stand up... but that doesn't suggest he can't either. What you fail to understand is that humans evolved to be bipedal creatures, meaning he will instinctively place a hand to lift himself from a declined surface. Remember that the next time you walk up a set of stairs and instinctively, without thinking about it, place your hand on the railing. Would you be able to walk up a set of steps without it? Probably, unless I really underestimated what a fat shit you are. Lmao.

Motion lines yes, that you'll see are absent from Kun in later panels, and present when Bnar is lain low by a Massassi and later begins trembling as he undergoes transformation.

Apparently these motion-lines that only occur when someone is shaking in great pain, happen to be circling Bnar in this panel as well. He didn't concede any crippling hits here, so what's the excuse? Is Kun's mere presence enough to cause a stir? But if they aren't representing pain, what is their purpose? Are they symbolic of movement, or are they superficial details that don't represent much of anything? Probably.

Which is grounds (assuming you have examples) of them being overprotective for no reason... because?

I think him coming to Kun's aid, when he is obviously unharmed is a rather good example overprotectiveness.


And don't tempt me lol.

Well your out of luck if you want to prove that these tikes are superior to their pledged leader, seen as Sylvar could oneshot several of them - including the servant in question - with her bare hands, despite being Kun's lesser in both power and augmented physical might. Maybe... this is just a bad example to compare characters, seen as everyone, including Vader, Sheev and Grandmaster Luke have been put on their asses by lesser characters more than once.

Again I the argument was never made that Kun's condition was lasting, only that he failed to emerge from the blast unscathed.

If this injury doesn't even last for five seconds, than it isn't an injury, and you might want to look up the word unscathed to understand why it applies to Kun here:

So tell me, what is this injury Kun has received and how is it affecting him?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
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It matters because we have a scene that doesn't make sense. Not only is Kun on the ground while the Massassi is standing, but the Massassi was thrown in the opposite direction, yet still Kun hasn't gotten up by the time he gets up and moves over to him.

Who gives a shit. I think you're under the impression that this is some kind of smoking gun, instead of an incredibly irrelevant nothing. He probably just landed in an awkward position, or his clothes made standing difficult, or seeing that Bnar was no longer a threat he took his time rising while his thrall rushed over to him. Who cares.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope, I was just waiting for you to grasp the problem. The solution being either that 1. the energy Bnar unleashed was directed at Kun 2. it was simply an illustration error.

The alternative, as you've worked out, isn't particularly appealing. And only makes Kun look worse.

Gosh, or maybe.... just maybe..... Kun was caught by surprise by an opponent that he thought was defeated and didn't have his defenses up just like I told you the first time this shit was debunked. Whoa, mindfvck. Who could ever have thought of this super surprising solution? What a twist!

I don't understand what you mean by illustration error though? That the Massassi wasn't supposed to be hit by it?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not even sure what that is in the background so I can't agree on that, otherwise no, there are several lines that don't really need to be there. Particularly above his head and wrist.

It's part of a wall or something. The lines above his head are the same as are next to the speech bubble. And the ones above his wrist are the same going up the pillar thing.

Also can I just say that its super cute that Kun's talking to the Massassi afterwards like he actually feels the need to keep it in the loop. I'm guessing its his favorite. ๐Ÿ˜

While a well researched blog, I don't think the parity you're trying to establish is there.

Both Kun and Luke were blatantly worse for wear following the blast.

Kun struggled to rise. Luke was laying on the ground with smoke steaming from him.

I don't know where you reached the conclusion that Kun also didn't shield himself.

To clarify further, I don't see any visible injuries from Kun.

The battle damage on his skirt was there prior to the battle.

It could also be that Ood unleashed a more potent attack against Sedriss than he did against Kun.

Good work, Beni. ๐Ÿ‘†

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It could also be that Ood unleashed a more potent attack against Sedriss than he did against Kun.

Which would be relevant if Kun died. So where's the comparison? That Bnar Killed Sedriss while he couldn't kill Kun? I mean, if he wanted to, he could have ended the war right there and then, he could have done it by himself but choose not too. I'm sorry but there are far better comparisons to be made and no conclusions can really be drawn from this.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Which would be relevant if Kun died. So where's the comparison? That Bnar Killed Sedriss while he couldn't kill Kun? I mean, if he wanted to, he could have ended the war right there and then, he could have done it by himself but choose not too. I'm sorry but there are far better comparisons to be made and no conclusions can really be drawn from this.

*Didn't kill Kun.
Yoda could have ended the war right there and then on Geonosis if he'd pursued Dooku instead of rescuing Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Typical Jedi ineptitude.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
*Didn't kill Kun.
Yoda could have ended the war right there and then on Geonosis if he'd pursued Dooku instead of rescuing Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Typical Jedi ineptitude.

So where are the two Jedi knights that conveniently prevent this occurence in Bnar's case? Saving two Jedi knights is much more justified than having no reason to act accordingly. In any case, for their to be a valid comparison between Kun and Sedriss, you need to also show me Kun dying; or even being injured by the big tree man in the middle of the room. Seen as you can't do that, there isn't any valid parity here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where does it say they were trying to disintegrate him and failed?

If I punch someone deliberately, are you also going to ask me if my intent was to hurt the person I punched? ๐Ÿ˜‚

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So where are the two Jedi knights that conveniently prevent this occurence in Bnar's case? Saving two Jedi knights is much more justified than having no reason to act accordingly. In any case, for their to be a valid comparison between Kun and Sedriss, you need to also show me Kun dying; or even being injured by the big tree man in the middle of the room. Seen as you can't do that, there isn't any valid parity here.

Bnar was interested in protecting Jedi lore/lightsabers rather than striking down his adversary. For even if he smote the puny apostate, there's no evidence to suggest he could have also dealt with Kun's Massassi.

I was responding to Ant's assessment about Luke's injuries vis a vis Kun's. Bnar could havesimply unleashed a more potent attack against Sedriss, which would explain the "greater" damage to Luke, who was proximate to the attack.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So this is your red handed evidence that Kun is injured. A fairly neutral expression masked by brow line shadow. Oh I guess, Kun must be injured in many other panels that depict this expression. You might have a point here if there was some dialogue that depicted pain, a quick grunt or exhalation of breath, but seen as those are glaringly absent, you're left clutching straws that don't exist.
Neutral expression? Lmao.

This is a neutral expression:

This is a grimace:

I'll leave you to play spot the difference in your own time.

Well it's pretty obvious he doesn't need any support to stand, seen as he does so in the same page within the timeframe of two seconds. On the other hand, I doubt he's going to use any measure of superhuman strength just to stand up... but that doesn't suggest he can't either. What you fail to understand is that humans evolved to be bipedal creatures, meaning he will instinctively place a hand to lift himself from a declined surface. Remember that the next time you walk up a set of stairs and instinctively, without thinking about it, place your hand on the railing. Would you be able to walk up a set of steps without it? Probably, unless I really underestimated what a fat shit you are. Lmao.
I don't tend to do that lol, unless for whatever reason, I need to. On the other hand from the perspective of a fictional work, the panel choosing to focus on Kun leaning on said object for support, certainly begs the question of why they bothered. When an upstanding position, or Kun getting up without aid, would have better reflected his supposedly "unscathed" condition.

And I think in reality your aware of that, as you continue to contrast this with later panels where Kun appears differently.

Apparently these motion-lines that only occur when someone is shaking in great pain, happen to be circling Bnar in this panel as well. He didn't concede any crippling hits here, so what's the excuse? Is Kun's mere presence enough to cause a stir? But if they aren't representing pain, what is their purpose? Are they symbolic of movement, or are they superficial details that don't represent much of anything? Probably.
A fair example, and I won't argue that motion lines always depict trembling. However this is a cumulative argument. And within the contexts of the aforementioned pointers the intentions become increasingly obvious.

I think him coming to Kun's aid, when he is obviously unharmed is a rather good example overprotectiveness.
Its almost as if, when you wrote that, you didn't realise it was circular. ๐Ÿ˜•

More to the point though, just as an overprotective mother will only rush to the aid of her child in the event he appears harmed, a Massassi with mothering instincts (still waiting for proof naturally) would only do the same if Kun appeared to the same.

In which case his primitive intelligence must be more observant than yours. ๐Ÿ™‚

Well your out of luck if you want to prove that these tikes are superior to their pledged leader, seen as Sylvar could oneshot several of them - including the servant in question - with her bare hands, despite being Kun's lesser in both power and augmented physical might. Maybe... this is just a bad example to compare characters, seen as everyone, including Vader, Sheev and Grandmaster Luke have been put on their asses by lesser characters more than once.
The fact that Kun was knocked on his ass is completely besides the point.

If this injury doesn't even last for five seconds, than it isn't an injury, and you might want to look up the word unscathed to understand why it applies to Kun here:

So tell me, what is this injury Kun has received and how is it affecting him?

I don't know how you inferred such a time frame when none is given, but I realise you're being deliberately retarded by fixating on the word injury.

In which case no, we can be pretty sure Kun was not cut, bruised or otherwise wounded, but in the same way you might be able to walk off me doubling you over with a punch in the stomach. That I did not harm you would hardly stand up in a court of law because "hurr durr no blood and you fine now."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who gives a shit. I think you're under the impression that this is some kind of smoking gun, instead of an incredibly irrelevant nothing. He probably just landed in an awkward position, or his clothes made standing difficult, or seeing that Bnar was no longer a threat he took his time rising while his thrall rushed over to him. Who cares.
Your hilarious, but no sorry, I won't be dishonestly interpret the text with such nonsense excuses.

Gosh, or maybe.... just maybe..... Kun was caught by surprise by an opponent that he thought was defeated and didn't have his defenses up just like I told you the first time this shit was debunked. Whoa, mindfvck. Who could ever have thought of this super surprising solution? What a twist!
Blah blah, even if we were to assume he didn't raise a barrier, the idea that he dropped all pretense of defense on top of that and then tripped up on his cape when attempting to stand would make Kun an even more incompetent fighter than Arcann. ๐Ÿ˜‚

Or in other words your excuses become increasingly strained.

I don't understand what you mean by illustration error though? That the Massassi wasn't supposed to be hit by it?
That he didn't consider the implications of drawing the Massassi next to Kun, upstanding.

It's part of a wall or something. The lines above his head are the same as are next to the speech bubble. And the ones above his wrist are the same going up the pillar thing.
Which denote the shadow of the overhang, and the other ones are not in line with the pillar at all lol, but follow the curve of his wrist.

Also can I just say that its super cute that Kun's talking to the Massassi afterwards like he actually feels the need to keep it in the loop. I'm guessing its his favorite. ๐Ÿ˜
Probably out of respect, he is stronger than him after all. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
but in the same way you might be able to walk off me doubling you over with a punch in the stomach

I bet he'd fold like a cheap lawnchair.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
While a well researched blog, I don't think the parity you're trying to establish is there.

Both Kun and Luke were blatantly worse for wear following the blast.

Kun struggled to rise. Luke was laying on the ground with smoke steaming from him.

That's not smoke but dust? Neither Luke nor Jem are visibly burned.

I don't know where you reached the conclusion that Kun also didn't shield himself.
Not seeing where I did either.

Also in regards to Ood not killing Kun as he did Bnar, this is obviously a forced comparison considering that unlike Sedriss, Kun was not snared. It also assumes that the "dark" power Sedriss was harnessing from the charged atmosphere could be turned to defense.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your hilarious, but no sorry, I won't be dishonestly interpret the text with such nonsense excuses.

I like how there's no actual point here or any real reason to discount my explanations. Or even to offer any kind of reason of your own. It's almost as if you know this isn't going well for you and you're trying to bs your way out of making any kind of argument.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Blah blah, even if we were to assume he didn't raise a barrier, the idea that he dropped all pretense of defense on top of that and then tripped up on his cape when attempting to stand would make Kun an even more incompetent fighter than Arcann. ๐Ÿ˜‚

Or in other words your excuses become increasingly strained.

I take it this is a concession, right? No attempts to refute my point or offer an alternative? Just petty jokes?

So are we done with this thread? You ready to drop it?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That he didn't consider the implications of drawing the Massassi next to Kun, upstanding.

Or maybe he didn't think Bnar was any kind of threat to Kun or the Massassi and wasn't trying to actually attack him. Y'know, like how its directly stated that he created a barrier instead of an attack like he used on Sedriss, since Bnar flat out says that he's can't hope to beat Kun?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which denote the shadow of the overhang, and the other ones are not in line with the pillar at all lol, but follow the curve of his wrist.

The lines are slanting away from the pillar before they reach Kun. That the background is identical to the lines next to Kun and a continuation of what is clearly the background, makes it impossible to suggest its denotes shaking.

Regardless, I see you've already dropped the point with Ziggy. Even if they are motion lines, all they show is, y'know, motion. Which Kun is in. There's no indication that he's shaking.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ood not killing Kun as he did Bnar

Well, I suppose this is technically correct.....

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Neutral expression? Lmao.

This is a neutral expression:

This is a grimace:

I'll leave you to play spot the difference in your own time.

Other than the overcast shadow exaggerating a brow line making his eyes disappear, there doesn't appear to be much difference. So why is the second image representing some intense physical pain that isn't suggested by any other pointers one can intensely scan the panel for? Finding an image of Kun using a different facial expression doesn't prove why he's injured in another. Otherwise I could just find an expression of him laughing in one panel to prove that he's sad in another. You need to tell me why the second face is contorted in a sufficient enough manner to represent harm done, because the expression isn't much different to the one Qel Droma wears in custody here :

As far as I'm aware, Qel Droma wasn't suffering from injury, lasting or superficial. As I said before, you might have a point if there was some clear indication that Kun was hurt; an explained narration, perhaps a comical grunt or exhalation to show that there's clearly something wrong, but there isn't, so we can assume he's completely unscathed.

I don't tend to do that lol

You absolutely do, but I'm unsurprised that you'd deny it right now in an attempt to regain some sort of credibility within this example. Stair railings are not just designed to support those who need it, they're designed with mother nature's decision for humans to walk upright on two legs as a trait that defines the hominid lineage, and that for us, it's pretty much instinctive to use an arm for support against an incline, when support is present at least. A person will almost always do so when falling over, even if they're a trained gymnast.

I need to. On the other hand from the perspective of a fictional work, the panel choosing to focus on Kun leaning on said object for support, certainly begs the question of why they bothered.

If they wanted to show Kun suffering from some injury in the perspective of a fictional work, then they had a lot more opportunities to so. They could have made him crawl around to find some leverage before hoisting himself up, rather than it conveniently being there in the first place. If his ability to walk was impaired, they shouldn't have shown him getting up without much difficulty and not showing any signs of harm in the consecutive panels - which seemingly occurs seconds after the event. This is also arguing from intent, which muddles the suspense of disbelief, and especially where the intent is not made clear in any manner.

A fair example, and I won't argue that motion lines always depict trembling.

Concession accepted

However this is a cumulative argument. And within the contexts of the aforementioned pointers the intentions become increasingly obvious.

I wonder how cumulative this argument is when all the other points are just as moot.

More to the point though, just as an overprotective mother will only rush to the aid of her child in the event he appears harmed, a Massassi with mothering instincts (still waiting for proof naturally) would only do the same if Kun appeared to the same. In which case his primitive intelligence must be more observant than yours.

I don't think there's much evidence to be found here. unless you argument is that Kun appeared to be harmed, but ultimately wasn't, which contradicts the original idea. In any case, the facial expression doesn't appear to represent pain and the motion lines don't represent trembling. We know that his ability to stand upright isn't impaired, nor is he suffering from an injuries; lasting seconds or otherwise. So is it a concession?

The fact that Kun was knocked on his ass is completely besides the point.

Well... seen as you can't prove that he was in harm, or even in pain, being knocked on his ass seems to be the only saving grace of this anti-kun argument. In which case, your arguing against hordes of other super strong characters that have been knocked over too, including Luke.

I don't know how you inferred such a time frame when none is given, but I realise you're being deliberately retarded by fixating on the word injury.

If we assume the events are occurring one after the other without some change scenery or some overlapping monologue from one or more characters, then the time frame is literally seconds.

In which case no, we can be pretty sure Kun was not cut, bruised or otherwise wounded,

Concession accepted then. We can add not being in pain to the list of ailments Kun isn't suffering from too.

but in the same way you might be able to walk off me doubling you over with a punch in the stomach.

If I'm being doubled over, it either means you've winded me or caused an internal bruise. Unless it was a reflex action, in which case, i wouldn't really be suffering and it might simply look that way to an observer, and I would be fine a second later - not too different from what we're describing.

That I did not harm you would hardly stand up in a court of law because "hurr durr no blood and you fine now."

So now we're arguing the legal definition of assault to prove what? Just to clarify, you could punch me in the stomach, and even if I didn't budge a centimeter, you could still get charged with assualt. So i'm not seeing what the point is here... that Kun could claim compensation from Bnar?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I like how there's no actual point here or any real reason to discount my explanations. Or even to offer any kind of reason of your own. It's almost as if you know this isn't going well for you and you're trying to bs your way out of making any kind of argument.
Oh was I supposed to take a wardrobe malfunction as a serious argument? And what awkward position would take so long for Kun to extricate himself from?

I take it this is a concession, right? No attempts to refute my point or offer an alternative? Just petty jokes?

So are we done with this thread? You ready to drop it?

Not when the absurdity of your argument is a perfectly valid criticism. But sure, I accept your concession.

Or maybe he didn't think Bnar was any kind of threat to Kun or the Massassi and wasn't trying to actually attack him. Y'know, like how its directly stated that he created a barrier instead of an attack like he used on Sedriss, since Bnar flat out says that he's can't hope to beat Kun?
You mean where it's stated he was "driving Kun back with a blast of power" and later proclaimed that he "I have defeated Exar Kun"? Lmao. Next time read the OP. ๐Ÿ™‚

The lines are slanting away from the pillar before they reach Kun. That the background is identical to the lines next to Kun and a continuation of what is clearly the background, makes it impossible to suggest its denotes shaking.

Regardless, I see you've already dropped the point with Ziggy. Even if they are motion lines, all they show is, y'know, motion. Which Kun is in. There's no indication that he's shaking.

Erm, actually they continue in a straight line beneath his arm, and you forgot about the ones above his head.

And that's not what I did dear, but I accept you agree with my conclusion nonetheless.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Other than the overcast shadow exaggerating a brow line making his eyes disappear, there doesn't appear to be much difference. So why is the second image representing some intense physical pain that isn't suggested by any other pointers one can intensely scan the panel for? Finding an image of Kun using a different facial expression doesn't prove why he's injured in another. Otherwise I could just find an expression of him laughing in one panel to prove that he's sad in another. You need to tell me why the second face is contorted in a sufficient enough manner to represent harm done, because the expression isn't much different to the one Qel Droma wears in custody here :

As far as I'm aware, Qel Droma wasn't suffering from injury, lasting or superficial. As I said before, you might have a point if there was some clear indication that Kun was hurt; an explained narration, perhaps a comical grunt or exhalation to show that there's clearly something wrong, but there isn't, so we can assume he's completely unscathed.

That's a grimace yes, well done.

Spoiler:
Though in this instance, Kun's eyes are also closed

You absolutely do, but I'm unsurprised that you'd deny it right now in an attempt to regain some sort of credibility within this example. Stair railings are not just designed to support those who need it, they're designed with mother nature's decision for humans to walk upright on two legs as a trait that defines the hominid lineage, and that for us, it's pretty much instinctive to use an arm for support against an incline, when support is present at least. A person will almost always do so when falling over, even if they're a trained gymnast.
I don't sorry, and actually, its pretty common for people to walk up stairs without using a banister. ๐Ÿ˜ฌ

If they wanted to show Kun suffering from some injury in the perspective of a fictional work, then they had a lot more opportunities to so. They could have made him crawl around to find some leverage before hoisting himself up, rather than it conveniently being there in the first place.
Because it was one panel. But despite that, he was not standing up.

If his ability to walk was impaired, they shouldn't have shown him getting up without much difficulty and not showing any signs of harm in the consecutive panels - which seemingly occurs seconds after the event. This is also arguing from intent, which muddles the suspense of disbelief, and especially where the intent is not made clear in any manner.
And yet difficulty can be inferred.

I wonder how cumulative this argument is when all the other points are just as moot.
When you fail to provide context to each one, you might erroneously conclude that. Otherwise when one grimaces, while using to support to stand up, the inference is that one is struggling to stand up. Likewise when one uses support to stand up, and does so while grimacing, the inference is the same. And when motion lines are added on top of that, the logical inference is that they are they to accentuate difficulty, not for arbitrary purposes.

don't think there's much evidence to be found here. unless you argument is that Kun appeared to be harmed, but ultimately wasn't, which contradicts the original idea. In any case, the facial expression doesn't appear to represent pain and the motion lines don't represent trembling. We know that his ability to stand upright isn't impaired, nor is he suffering from an injuries; lasting seconds or otherwise. So is it a concession?
If he appeared to be harmed by an observer, then that observer is picking up on all the same pointers I elucidated here, and perhaps more that could not be translated.

As to me conceding to circular logic? Fraid not.

If we assume the events are occurring one after the other without some change scenery or some overlapping monologue from one or more characters, then the time frame is literally seconds.

According to what this... convenient panel? Having listened to the some audio drama I can tell you that is not the case.

Concession accepted then. We can add not being in pain to the list of ailments Kun isn't suffering from too.
Leaving lasting injury is the not the qualifier of pain lol. But naturally there is also fatigue to consider.

If I'm being doubled over, it either means you've winded me or caused an internal bruise. Unless it was a reflex action, in which case, i wouldn't really be suffering and it might simply look that way to an observer, and I would be fine a second later - not too different from what we're describing.
And in either case you might be able to walk it off, especially if you have a magic Force power that could refresh your body. mmm

So now we're arguing the legal definition of assault to prove what? Just to clarify, you could punch me in the stomach, and even if I didn't budge a centimeter, you could still get charged with assualt. So i'm not seeing what the point is here... that Kun could claim compensation from Bnar?
That Kun failed to absorb Bnar's attack, yeah.