Originally posted by SunRazer
If you're asserting that the Force is imbalanced in accordance with the raw power of active dark siders, then Palpatine still represents the culmination of dark side power and still eclipses Valkorion in that regard, simply because the imbalance in his time was greater than anything in Valkorion's entire life. According to your assertion, that would mean that the unprecedented imbalance had to have been perpetuated by Palpatine's unprecedented strength in the dark side.So it's checkmate for the Valkoriates no matter where they go.
Check my response: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=635850&pagenumber=7
Do you have a counter for it?
In-fact, additional observations came to mind:
1. The role of The Father in maintaining the balance of the Force! It is possible that he was able to restore balance (time and again) during the timeline of ancient Sith. However, he experienced greater decline during the timeline of Bannite Sith and his ability to maintain balance was compromised?
2. Corruption becoming widespread during the timeline of Bannite Sith! In-fact, some Bannite Sith were beneficiaries or contributors towards this trend.
There are so many variables.
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Valkorion was trying to minimize his footprint, not make himself visible. This is apparent from the demise of the First Son; the latter entity suppressed the footprint of Children across the galaxy. However, its demise exposed them.
My points were in response to AncientPower's post. I'm merely drawing the only conclusion that can be drawn from that line of thought.
Also, it's entirely possible that the Son's gravitation towards the dark side and the Father's increasing inability to stop him were the product of Plagueis and Sidious' bending of the Force towards the dark side.
Valkorion was no more trying to minimize his footprint than Sidious, who was hardly trying to expose himself to the Jedi. It's not mutually exclusive with bending to the Force to your will, which is simply something that Valkorion never managed to achieve in all his years of power. We don't need to complicate this.
Originally posted by SunRazer
My points were in response to AncientPower's post. I'm merely drawing the only conclusion that can be drawn from that line of thought.Also, it's entirely possible that the Son's gravitation towards the dark side and the Father's increasing inability to stop him were the product of Plagueis and Sidious' bending of the Force towards the dark side.
Valkorion was no more trying to minimize his footprint than Sidious, who was hardly trying to expose himself to the Jedi. It's not mutually exclusive with bending to the Force to your will, which is simply something that Valkorion never managed to achieve in all his years of power.
Palpatine wore the face of a politician but that did not stop him from attempting to influence the balance of the Force in a proactive manner; he actually benefited from this phenomenon because it negatively impacted Jedi senses. The Jedi would be hard-pressed to see through his mask. Mace Windu was able to sense the Dark Side in him but he acted too late. The Jedi Order was confused about this matter on the whole. The enemy was within. There was no Sith Empire to go after. I am not sure why the Sheevites even bother to compare Palpatine and Valkorion in this matter when they faced entirely different set of circumstances.
Sheevites introduced this line-of-thought because they are running out of excuses. They are complicating this matter. They forgot the fact that there are a number of forces at play that influence the balance of the Force.
Originally posted by SunRazer
My points were in response to AncientPower's post. I'm merely drawing the only conclusion that can be drawn from that line of thought.Also, it's entirely possible that the Son's gravitation towards the dark side and the Father's increasing inability to stop him were the product of Plagueis and Sidious' bending of the Force towards the dark side.
The Father and Son make P&S look like gnats. I really doubt they could be influenced by them.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion never attempted to influence the balance of the Force in proactive manner either. Therefore, we are back to square one.Palpatine wore the face of a politician but that did not stop him from attempting to influence the balance of the Force in a proactive manner; he actually benefited from this phenomenon because it negatively impacted Jedi senses. The Jedi would be hard-pressed to see through his mask. Mace Windu was able to sense the Dark Side in him but he acted too late. The Jedi Order was confused about this matter on the whole. The enemy was within. There was no Sith Empire to go after. I am not sure why the Sheevites even bother to compare Palpatine and Valkorion in this matter when they faced entirely different set of circumstances.
Sheevites introduced this line-of-thought because they are running out of excuses. They are complicating this matter. They forgot the fact that there are a number of forces at play that influence the balance of the Force.
Valkorion's whole-shtick is his desire to become, in essence, omnipotent. The idea that he had no interest in bending the Force to his will is pretty ludicrous.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Valkorion's whole-shtick is his desire to become, in essence, omnipotent. The idea that he had no interest in bending the Force to his will is pretty ludicrous.
The bending the Force to his will mantra does not equates to unbalancing the Force in a proactive manner, like the duo of Palpatine and Darth Plagueis sought to.
This statement from an unidentified Sith is very telling:
"The Force can be bent to your will, but often there is a cost. The most powerful rituals of the dark side exact a toll few are willing to pay."
Vitiate was willing to go that level; we have an example in Nathema. This ritual led to creation of the largest nexus of Dark Side energy in history. It might have even unbalanced the Force at that time. However, balance would be restored time and again. Why is this so hard to understand?
TOR does not gives much importance to the whole "balance of the Force" phenomenon. It gains prominence in Palpatine's story-arc. This is the difference.
What reason does Vitiate have to believe that balance would be restored? He's trying to make himself omnipotent - if anything, he'd believe that there could be nothing to stop or undo his actions.
Absolutely nothing here sufficiently justifies the idea that Vitiate simply didn't want to do it. As a being who wanted to assert his dominance in every way, it's only natural that he'd want to bend the Force to his will as well.
Originally posted by SunRazer
What reason does Vitiate have to believe that balance would be restored? He's trying to make himself omnipotent - if anything, he'd believe that there could be nothing to stop or undo his actions.Absolutely nothing here sufficiently justifies the idea that Vitiate simply didn't want to do it. As a being who wanted to assert his dominance in every way, it's only natural that he'd want to bend the Force to his will as well.
Vitiate is a source of imbalance, right? Duly noted.
However, there were other forces at play that influenced the balance of the Force. They included good deeds of people in general, the Jedi Order on the whole and role of the entities such as The Father. Such forces would - collectively - restore the balance, after each period of imbalance.
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan nailed it:
The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted.
Vitiate wasn't trying to unbalance the Force in a proactive manner, like the duo of Palpatine and Darth Plagueis. There is not a single example or hint towards such intent on Vitiate's behalf. However, his actions might/could have influenced the balance of the Force time and again, only to be restored by external forces at play each time.
Now, during the era of Palpatine; the Father was weak and eventually perished; the corruption was wide-spread; the Jedi Order became a casualty of conspiring forces; and even the Chosen One fell to the Dark Side. On top of everything, there a was a proactive effort to unbalance the Force. All of these developments facilitated the imbalance instead of rectifying it. Clear enough?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66Losing all semblance of credibility not been enough for you?
Alright, champ. Let's have some fun.
The Force conceived Anakin Skywalker to bring balance to the Force.Correct.
For a thousand years, the Sith had been sowing chaos, destruction, and imbalance throughout the galaxy:Incorrect. Nothing in that paragraph indicates imbalance, sowing chaos and destruction is indeed what Sith's do and have done for millennia, but the fact they were growing in strength does not preclude the Force remaining in balance at all.
Instead the acts they committed were cheap change in comparison to what dark sider's have done in the past, with no significant impact on the cosmic equilibrium.
Darth Tenebrous' master revealed the thousand years of growing dark side power as he ripped open the fabric of the ForceContext darling, though yes it is true that Tenebrous' master made such a rent, he did so in the respect he tore a hole in the pervading light side aura or "bubble" that the Jedi had spread across the galaxy, one designed to shield them from dark side influence:
In a sense, the Jedi Order had done the same on a galactic scale, Plagueis believed, by bathing the galaxy in the energy of the light side of the Force; or more accurately by fashioning a Force bubble that had prevented infiltration by the dark side, until Tenebrous's Master had succeeded in bursting the bubble, or at least shrinking it. How the Order's actions could be thought of as balancing the Force had baffled generations of Sith, who harbored no delusions regarding the Force's ability to self-regulate.Or in other words, no, Tenebrous' master did not cause any kind of imbalance, simply penetrated the defence protecting the Jedi from the dark side so that his successors could proceed to influence them.
Or as Nova lucidly described it, they merely opened a window to the renewed existence of the Sith (which they believed extinct), allowing for the coming storm to surge through.
A storm that would be brought forth by Darth Plagueis. 👆
Palpatine's acension to Dark Lord of the Sith caused a shift in the balance of the ForceOr to be more accurate, deepened the preexisting imbalance instigated by the ritual, quite.
The Clone Wars escalated the state of unbalance to a degree that was never before seen by Darth Maul, who would have felt all the following:As I've already pointed out, there is no evidence the Clone Wars themselves were the root cause, and you've since failed to rebut the point. Do so or otherwise concede.
Likewise during the Clone Wars, the Father's dwindling power escalated to the point that he would soon die:There is no evidence to suggest, and indeed no reason to believe, that his decline began with the Clone Wars, in fact that is very unlikely since his diminished power is significant only two years in to the conflict.
The below quote establishes a direct correlation between the presence of the Jeid in the galaxy and the balance of the Force.Not really, only that with the return of the Jedi the balance would be restored. Which only makes sense considering the Jedi are typically seen as protectors of said balance.Thus, Order 66 and the Great Jedi Purge would have likewise escalated the unbalance to where it was fully submerged within the dark side:
However the Jedi of the PT had utterly failed in that charge, and by Order 66 the light had already been extinguished, the dark side already reigned supreme, and in the absence of any noted gravitic shift during the end of the Clone Wars, seems more likely that cosmologically speaking, the Jedi were already obsolete.
All of these factors would have brought about the creation of the Chosen One, since the prophecy, as you agree, would have been accomplished when the unbalance was in its absolute peak.Or rather the sole factor that is Palpatine's continued solidification of the dark side's sovereignty of the Force, brought about by the ritual that put all proceeding Sith Lords, and Revan's pathetic ass, to due shame. 👆
Now, I'm going to be generous and assume that Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's meditation was likewise factored in this.Concession accepted.
Note that it doesn't matter, since their action was one of many, both in the past and future, that contributed to the Chosen One being birthed when he did.I also accept your concession that the matter of before and after is entirely irrelevant. This also seems a good time to reiterate a point you've still failed to rebut:
[...] the Force is ultimately not a sentient being, but rather a force of nature. Or otherwise when the Force is made to zig, it zags in instinctive response, proximity therefore is absolutely of significance when discussing what ultimately triggered the Force into action.
So really, this notion that Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's meditation had any impact other than an unquantifiable yet small degree is unsupported and wrong.In terms of significance it was what facilitated Sidious' rise to dark side power and the bringing of an end to the Jedi by indeed establishing the Sith's sovereignty over the Force. Yes an unprecedented act that brought forth unprecedented results, the total and absolute dominance of the Sith. It was the catalyst that made possible all the ensuing shifts, and, again by cause and effect, the catalyst that led to the creation of Anakin. 👆So no, it's not an unprecedented act. The Chosen One was not birthed as a direct result of it, as I proven with the dates. The Force never even retaliated.
However, Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's meditation are not only not necessary for the Chosen One's creation, but there's little supporting it even actually occurred.Luke Skywalker is not an authority on the capabilities of Darth Plagueis lmao, and you forget nonetheless that Sidious to felt and acknowledged the shift as well. Nor does the so called will of the Force have anything to do with sensing it is out of balance, even Maul and Savage could sense this, anyone sufficiently strong in the Force could.As stated here by Luke Skywalker, and also stated by myself prior to reading this quote, Darth Plagueis can't measure the will of the Force.
Furthermore, Darth Plagueis wrongly assumed the shift was absolute with his meditation, but we know that is not true.
So no, the idea that the shift never happened in the first place is as laughable as it is baseless. And it's quickly rendering you a walking meme.
The above sources specify that the unbalancing was a gradual shift, not a sudden move. Likewise, numerous events attribute to this shift.The fact that Dooku perceived a steady drift toward darkness does not preclude the existence of several gravitic shifts, as we know there to have been.
In reality, the effects of the meditation can be attributed to both coincidence and Anakin Skywalker's growing power.😂
Growing power? Anakin had only just been born lmao. Nor is the Force going to create Anakin to aid the Sith. Christ, you really are stupid.
Anakin Skywalker is the ultimate imbalance in Star Wars. The meditation would have been *eclipsed* by Skywalker's growing power and imbalance.Through what? A total misreading of Hidalgo's points and total lack of understanding regarding their authority?
Pablo says that he believes Plagueis and Palpatine brought about the birth of Anakin, or rather that the Force was responding to their actions. He then says that "beyond that" - i.e. in addition to, not instead of - Anakin became the source of the imbalance.
This could be interpreted in a number of ways, but it's a tweet so he's not very clear.
Most importantly though is that he helixes this as just a thought, not a fact, a personal musing. That's pretty much grounds for nothing in regards to a debate, which would only relate to Canon anyway.
Likewise, all of the events that are cited above are in direct correlation with Skywalker's growing power up until the ultimate eradication of the Jedi in Episode III.A coincidence. 😂
Thus, the meditation, technically speaking, did next to nothing. Everything it claimed to due could have happened due to other reasons, as cited above.Hilarious, but you continue to misread the terrain, for though it was only your reputation that was dwindling before now it's indeed, the only thing that's dead. 👆To attribute anything to the meditation would be complete and utter speculation. Thus, it's not a feat. Darth Plagueis is dead, and so are you.
@ILS:
The distinction between the disturbances you pointed to, and then Revan's, is that Revan's was maintained.
“I can sense him, Grievous. That creature Savage Opress is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes.”
“You consider him a threat?”
“He is a threat to all of us, even the Jedi. With the Nightsister’s eradicated, there is no one left to control him. Something is rising. Something... sinister.”
- Count Dooku and General Grievous (The Clone Wars: Season 4 Episode 21: Brothers)
There's reason to believe that Dooku could sense the growing presence of Savage Opress because he was formerly Savage Opress' master.
A bond would be established between the two.
In contrast, individuals like Spindrall and the Emperor's Hand has no prior connection to Revan whatsoever.
“I sense a disturbance... something sinister.”
“All the way out here?”
“Yes.”
“Do you know what or who it is?”
“No... but whatever it is... it feels familiar.”
- Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano (The Clone Wars: Season 4 Episode 21: Brothers)
Anakin Skywalker was on the same asteroid as Savage Opress when the quote was stated, if I recall correctly.
So, really, this doesn't remotely suggest that Savage Opress warranted a disturbance in the Force.
“Feel the disturbance in the Force, do you?”
“Yes Master.”
“Fear you are in danger, I do. From the dead, an old enemy has awakened, seeking vengeance.”
“An old enemy?”
“Killed your master many moons ago, he did.”
“How can this be? I killed him myself.”
“It is so, I feared.”
“Darth Maul... alive?”
- Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi (The Clone Wars: Season 4 Episode 21: Brothers)
Master Yoda had been the first to feel the disturbance in the Force. Through meditation he had discovered its source - Obi-Wan’s ancient enemy had somehow returned from the dead.
- Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy
This is a different disturbance than the other ones. This marked Darth Maul's return.
There's no indication that this disturbance in the Force stayed constant / growing.
And more importantly, Revan's disturbance seemingly warranted a response from the Force itself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK950bgOsg8&t=0m36s - 1m18s
Note that, besides the creation of the Chosen One, I can't think of an instance where the Force acted in galactic affairs to an extent that it could be tangibly recorded.
Now, I'll lay out two possible scenarios here that caused the Force's intervention:
a.) Revan's simple existence. The source of the "basal disturbance" plaguing the galaxy was none other than Revan. Thus, the Force acted against it.
b.) The war of wills between Revan and Vitiate, which had already begun on Yavin IV prior to the expansion starting:
"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."- Michael Backus (Star Wars: The Old Republic Head Writer)
Now, note that the former scenario was done with his mere presence. The later was done in conflict between himself and Vitiate.
Either situation has Revan playing an instrumental event that demanded the Force's actual intervention.
Thus, if we consider the possibility that Revan, in deep meditation, would wage war against the Force for months, it's entirely possible that a physical champion would rise up and take his place. Alternatively, if we want to select the second option, then it would warrant both Revan and Vitiate, but nevertheless the results of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's mental war should be replicated. After all, they're already coming close. They're already closer than anyone in history besides Darth Plagueis and Palpatine themselves to creating a Chosen One, and they haven't even intentionally began waging war.
Thus, as established in the opening post in this thread, I see enough evidence to believe Revan or Revan and Vitiate could replicate Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's showing.
At the very least, I'd like you to recognize what Revan (and Vitiate, perhaps) is doing is beyond anything we've seen from characters that you put above Revan.
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In regards to Revan actually dying, yes, he actually died.
As you conceded here, Darth Krayt never actually died:
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Legacy blatantly says Krayt wasn't actually dead.
Originally posted by ILS
It does, even though Krayt would have us believe otherwise.
In contrast, we have:
"When I died, I had come to terms. I was ready to become one with the Force. But I soon realized that was only what part of me wanted."- Spirit (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
The above is from spirit Revan. Whereas SoR Revan might have reason to hype himself up, spirit Revan has none.
Furthermore, the protagonists confirm Revan's death here:
"I watched you take your last breath and say your last words."- Imperial Protagonist (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
So, we have SoR Revan, Spirit Revan, and an eyewitness all confirming Revan's death.
All we need now is a third-person source...
Ah, great. 👆
So yes, Revan actually died, as stated by the above sources.