Maul (Rebels) vs. Ventress (Legends)

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
We don't really know what the adjustment for Maul was like given the legs were fused to his body with Talzin's magic. His body was connected to those prosthetic with the Force.

I think you're downplaying the significance of the fact that Maul has lived his life with a certain type of legs that he has decades of intimate experience using, and largely developed his entire martial arts around (things like height, balance, stance, leverage, agility, unarmed combat etc.), and now he's stuck in a fight against Kenobi and Ventress with legs he's maybe had a few days with if we're being generous.

Ventress on the other hand is deprived of one of her weapons, but she's still fighting with a weapon she has intimate experience using.

It seems pretty obvious to me which is the biggest hindrance, especially considering Maul's used to fighting with another blade as well.

She's already demonstrated parity/superiority with a superior version as I mentioned.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Maul is definitely more skilled then the two individually. I'm simply noting ( as the quotes you provided do ) that it was Jinn and Obi Wan on the offensive and while they were not skilled enough to achieve an early resolution they were forcing him back. Unless the novel notes otherwise?

She's demonstrated superiority to them both at various points in the Clone Wars.

Hmm, I think I see what you're trying to say, but in the novel, at the moment when Jinn and Obi Wan reached the offensive, "pinning" Maul between them, Maul had the skill to separate them. What you're implying is that because Maul tactically separated the duo, he's inferior to them, when the case is that Maul is good enough to the point where he can separate this duo to regain a tactical position despite being pinned between them. I just don't see how his fight in TPM can be used against him ( besides the ending of course). Qui Gon made the rash decision of pressing the offensive against Maul instead of waiting for Obi Wan, but it's noted that had Qui Gon not done this, Maul would have had time to regroup, implying that had Qui Gon waited for Obi Wan and let Maul regroup, the confrontation wouldn't turn out much better.

If you could give some examples of Ventress's superiority top the duo, that would be appreciated. Btw, in the TPM, it's stated that Qui Gon and Obi Wan have experience fighting together, so separating them is more impressive to me than separating the uncoordinated Anakin and Obi Wan.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oXnCMk1QFT1RISOjpYJewc7N31of5nKNAortWZ9CJGw/edit?usp=sharing

Constant references to Maul being comfortable, leading them/them following Maul, Maul landing the only blows until Qui-Gon's backhand (which came at the expense of Obi-Wan being kicked off the catwalk), references to their combined skill being eclipsed, etc.

👆

The fact that he separated them is very likely only a reflection his desire to execute a clean kill.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Okay... that doesn't mean Talzin implanted some motor control muscle memory shit into Maul's mind, otherwise he wouldn't have fallen over the first time he tried to stand and visibly adjust to his legs before he could stand unaided.

I think you're downplaying the significance of the fact that Maul has lived his life with a certain type of legs that he has decades of intimate experience using, and largely developed his entire martial arts around (things like height, balance, stance, leverage, agility, unarmed combat etc.), and now he's stuck in a fight against Kenobi and Ventress with legs he's maybe had a few days with if we're being generous.

Ventress on the other hand is deprived of one of her weapons, but she's still fighting with a weapon she has intimate experience using.

It seems pretty obvious to me which is the biggest hindrance, especially considering Maul's used to fighting with another blade as well.

That could have simply been because of the weakness of having just had metal fused into your body without anesthetics... Maul's tough but even he's not immune to pain. Also Maul seems to feel pain when the leg is shot and you can see Talzin's magic leaking out from it almost as if it is a wound. Sort of implies she did something to make the legs more apart of him then simple prosthetics. Probably so it WOULD be easier to adjust.

Maul's knows how to fight with a single blade as well. That's what he fought with for most of his training before building his lightsaber. The difference between Maul and Ventress is that he's been taught to use nearly anything as a weapon and was a general weapons master while Ventress was mostly specialized as a Jar Kai duelist.

Really depends on the legs Talzin provided Maul with since we know Maul was not only a weapons master outside of the lightsaber but was certainly a master with the single blade as well since his saber staff had a detachable hilt.

Originally posted by Solar Power
Hmm, I think I see what you're trying to say, but in the novel, at the moment when Jinn and Obi Wan reached the offensive, "pinning" Maul between them, Maul had the skill to separate them. What you're implying is that because Maul tactically separated the duo, he's inferior to them, when the case is that Maul is good enough to the point where he can separate this duo to regain a tactical position despite being pinned between them. I just don't see how his fight in TPM can be used against him ( besides the ending of course). Qui Gon made the rash decision of pressing the offensive against Maul instead of waiting for Obi Wan, but it's noted that had Qui Gon not done this, Maul would have had time to regroup, implying that had Qui Gon waited for Obi Wan and let Maul regroup, the confrontation wouldn't turn out much better.

If you could give some examples of Ventress's superiority top the duo, that would be appreciated. Btw, in the TPM, it's stated that Qui Gon and Obi Wan have experience fighting together, so separating them is more impressive to me than separating the uncoordinated Anakin and Obi Wan.

Maul's tactical prowess is impressive and while I think the fight could have gone on for a respectable period the duo would have ultimately worn him down. This is why Maul being the tactically minded individual he was chose to give ground and tire out his opponents rather then face them head on.

For Anakin her scarring of Anakin where she could have ended his life just months before the end of the Clone Wars. For Obi Wan I'd have to go digging through my old Clone Wars comics.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That could have simply been because of the weakness of having just had metal fused into your body without anesthetics... Maul's tough but even he's not immune. Also Maul seems to feel pain when the leg is shot and you can see Talzin's magic leaking out from it almost as if it is a wound. Sort of implies she did something to make the legs more apart of him then simple prosthetics. Probably so it WOULD be easier to adjust.

Maul's knows how to fight with a single blade as well. That's what he fought with for most of his training before building his lightsaber. The difference between Maul and Ventress is that he's been taught to use nearly anything as a weapon and was a general weapons master while Ventress was mostly specialized as a Jar Kai duelist.

As for Maul's robot legs, they were more than prosthetics. He shouts in pain whenever they're injured, and he was stabbed in the pelvic area of the legs in the Death Sentence comic, which made Judd remark that it wouldn't take Maul long to die with a wound like that.

You see Maul stumbling around aboard the Turtle Tanker lol.

Maul is also in the same boat as Ventress regarding his lightsaber, Syn has zero case here.

Originally posted by ILS
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oXnCMk1QFT1RISOjpYJewc7N31of5nKNAortWZ9CJGw/edit?usp=sharing

Constant references to Maul being comfortable, leading them/them following Maul, Maul landing the only blows until Qui-Gon's backhand (which came at the expense of Obi-Wan being kicked off the catwalk), references to their combined skill being eclipsed, etc.

He's got insane ass baseline physicality, insane and heavily refined technical skill, some rather immense power in the Force, yet as far as dueling feats go, the best he has is being>Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon gets most of his props for how he stacks up against Maul. That's kinda the main reason I have a rather decent gap between TPM and TCW Maul since TCW is when Maul gets shit like his fights against Savage, Obi-Wan, etc. more concrete displays of superiority to other great duelists.

I'm not trying to downplay the impressiveness of TPM Maul and Qui-Gon the Qui-Gon Obi-Wan duo as far as dueling showings/scaling goes, as even pre-TPM Obi-Wan is one of the greatest duelists in the Jedi Order, and since Maul and Qui-Gon are both considerably ahead of Anoon Bondara, whose a Weapons Master (which IMO is considerably better than being a battlemaster, and marks him as being among the greatest duelists in the history of the Jedi Order), along with Anoon having hype from some people actually thinking he's the greatest duelist in the Order.

I still have TPM Maul above peeps like Ventress and Savage, I'm just kinda curious as to whether there's another angle for his dueling scaling/feats I hadn't considered before.

Qui-Gon is noted to be one of the Order's best pure swordsman in history, and I believe Anoon admits his inferiority to him, yeah.

TPM Kenobi is also noted to be an exceptional Padawan and rivalling his master in some aspects.

Originally posted by ILS
references to their combined skill being eclipsed, etc.

I didn't see that one in particular. If you could provide the specific passage I'd appreciate it.

Reading them over it appears that Maul was a match for them.

Also Syn, still waiting for a case for Ventress, seeing as you haven't made one yet. 🙂

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That could have simply been because of the weakness of having just had metal fused into your body without anesthetics... Maul's tough but even he's not immune. Also Maul seems to feel pain when the leg is shot and you can see Talzin's magic leaking out from it almost as if it is a wound. Sort of implies she did something to make the legs more apart of him then simple prosthetics. Probably so it WOULD be easier to adjust.

I mean shit, just from growing Kenobi made clumsy mistakes because his legs felt awkward and differently proportioned than what he was used to, and that's a gradual change, not being stuck with a completely separate set of legs.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Maul's knows how to fight with a single blade as well. That's what he fought with for most of his training before building his lightsaber. The difference between Maul and Ventress is that he's been taught to use nearly anything as a weapon and was a general weapons master while Ventress was mostly specialized as a Jar Kai duelist.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Really depends on the legs Talzin provided Maul with since we know Maul was not only a weapons master outside of the lightsaber but was certainly a master with the single blade as well since his saber staff had a detachable hilt.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You see Maul stumbling around aboard the Turtle Tanker lol.

Maul is also in the same boat as Ventress regarding his lightsaber, Syn has zero case here.

I addressed both of these. You should really learn to read Beni. I hear it can be a useful skill. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also Syn, still waiting for a case for Ventress, seeing as you haven't made one yet. 🙂

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I addressed this. You should really learn to read Beni. I hear it can be a useful skill. 🙂

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm curious ILS, what's your argument for Maul having great dueling feats in TPM, cause that seems to be TPM Maul's most lacking area in martial combat (relatively speaking).

Yet, as the doc I linked shows, there was a slim chance of Maul losing that fight regardless of whether he made it a war of attrition or separated them.

The other angle I would provide you is to consider how much of a gap there would logically be between TPM and TCW. We know TCW became more powerful, to an extent. We also know that he lost half of his body, gimping how many midichlorians he can channel with the Force (which, as we know in Vader's case, set him below his RotS self until further training/adjusting). I'd say there was a fair increase but not enough to, for example, put Kas'im above TPM Maul but then have TCW Maul outclassing Kas'im, which I think is your take on him?

I personally don't see a huge difference between the two. Time travel TCW Obi-Wan back in time to TPM and you'll still have a great fight. Time travel Savage back in time and he'll still be disarmed with a pressure point before long.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Okay, so his nervous system is linked to his legs. If I gave you a completely different set of legs from the ones you had now, even if you could feel them, are you seriously telling me that within a few days, you'd have near the same comfort ability to use those legs as you did your own legs? Almost certainly not. And you haven't even spent decades developing a martial fighting style around your specific body only for half of it to completely change on you.

I mean shit, just from growing Kenobi made clumsy mistakes because his legs felt awkward and differently proportioned than what he was used to, and that's a gradual change, not being stuck with a completely separate set of legs.

Ventress was originally trained to wield a second blade. She only took up Jar'kai when her Jedi master died.

Nothing changes the fact that Maul has lived his entire life using a completely set of legs, and that he developed his fighting style with a completely separate set of legs. Even if he has physical sensation in them, it doesn't change much.

Granted but then I don't have access to a universal power source that can often directs your movements for you and gives you a greater connection to the universe around you.

He was trained as a Jedi padawan with an average connection to the Force at the time ( given he was at risk of being sent to the Agricultural Corps ). The difference between an adult Maul and a padawan Obi Wan makes this comparison meaningless. Maul has been handicapped similarly all his life. His mission in Lockdown coming to mind. Despite not having the Force to augment his physical capabilities Maul adjusted just fine.

Read above.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I addressed both of these. You should really learn to read Beni. I hear it can be a useful skill. 🙂

Yeah that wouldn't happen to TPM Maul.

The matter of Ventress being reliant on Jar'Kai having been debunked by Dark Disciple, when opts for and indeed excels at wielding a single blade. So in the absence of a real reason for Ventress winning I remain unconvinced. 🙂

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Granted but then I don't have access to a universal power source that can often directs your movements for you and gives you a greater connection to the universe around you.

He was trained as a Jedi padawan with an average connection to the Force at the time ( given he was at risk of being sent to the Agricultural Corps ). The difference between an adult Maul and a padawan Obi Wan makes this comparison meaningless. Maul has been handicapped similarly all his life. His mission in Lockdown coming to mind. Despite not having the Force to augment his physical capabilities Maul adjusted just fine.

Read above.

That just doesn't make sense to me. If you're telling me the Force would help Maul magically adjust to that perfectly, then Ventress shouldn't have any problem at all single wielding. Seeing as a difference in armament has had a considerable impact on trained Force users before, I'm inclined to say a difference in half of Maul's body is much less trivial than you're making it out to be.