AOTC Anakin and Obi Wan vs TPM Qui Gon and Obi Wan

Originally posted by MythLord
How very retarded. He fought Tyranus because that was his primary target. Once the droids got in the way, he usually managed to dismantle them just fine until they cheapshotted him.

Only after he dispatches them with TK does he head for Dooku again. Pay attention. 👆

Originally posted by Kurk
lol you pay attention. He didn't dismantle them and force pushing them was ineffective. Anakin just pretends to ignore them since he wants to reach the ultimate goal, killing Dooku, so quickly without thinking.

Not quite darling. He clearly spends a good deal of time fighting them off.

Then when he reaches the chamber where Tyranus stood, he took out two of them with TK then engaged Dooku directly while the droids were either incapped or just not jumping into the fight.

Once the two he dispatched recovered, he was in trouble, but by that point he was already driving back Dooku.

Though I have no idea how this proves Anakin is suddenly inferior to Qui-Gon or TPM Kenobi. mmm

Originally posted by MythLord
Not quite darling. He clearly spends a good deal of time fighting them off.

Then when he reaches the chamber where Tyranus stood, he took out two of them with TK then engaged Dooku directly while the droids were either incapped or just not jumping into the fight.

Once the two he dispatched recovered, he was in trouble, but by that point he was already driving back Dooku.

Though I have no idea how this proves Anakin is suddenly inferior to Qui-Gon or TPM Kenobi. mmm

Originally posted by Kurk
Boo boo, Dooku is walking away with his saber deactivated posing no immediately threat to Anakin. Instead of first destroying the droids rather than temporarily moving them out of his way, he chases after Dooku as if he really thinks he can kill him before the droids can get back up. Looks like Anakin learned his lesson though because the second time on Naboo he makes sure to completely dismantle the two magnaguards before engaging Dooku.

Well, obviously he doesn't think a bunch of droids are a threat, so he figures a simple BFR would do.
Keep in mind that Dooku was Anakin's biggest arch enemy; makes sense he'd be his primary target in most scenarios.

Originally posted by MythLord
Well, obviously he doesn't think a bunch of droids are a threat, so he figures a simple BFR would do.
Keep in mind that Dooku was Anakin's biggest arch enemy; makes sense he'd be his primary target in most scenarios.

Originally posted by Kurk
He doesn't think several magnaguards which he struggled against were a threat? More like he was an impatient child who failed at taking it one step at a time.

When did he struggle against MagnaGuards? He defeated them fairly handily in the earlier seasons of TCW, where he was just barely above his padawan self.

This whole "Anakin is reckless" thing needs to end, since said recklessness is something Dooku -- one of the most masterful and precise duelists in galactic history, with a fighting form practically designed for exploiting defensive lapses and mistakes -- couldn't exploit and was hard pressed to bypass Skywalker's defenses in a duel.

Jinn and TPM Kenobi wouldn't stand a chance in hell of doing that. The AotC team still wins.

Originally posted by MythLord
When did he struggle against MagnaGuards? He defeated them fairly handily in the earlier seasons of TCW, where he was just barely above his padawan self.

This whole "Anakin is reckless" thing needs to end, since said recklessness is something Dooku -- one of the most masterful and precise duelists in galactic history, with a fighting form practically designed for exploiting defensive lapses and mistakes -- couldn't exploit and was hard pressed to bypass Skywalker's defenses in a duel.

Jinn and TPM Kenobi wouldn't stand a chance in hell of doing that. The AotC team still wins.

overall recklessness doesn't translate into his saber technique but his overall character and the way he conducts himself. And please don't substitute dashes with two hyphens; it's alt + 0151 .

Is there any proof that AotC Kenobi is better than Qui Gon? Dooku trolled with Kenobi while Qui-Gon put up a hell of a fight against Maul using an extremely physically demanding form as a 60 year old man.

Originally posted by Kurk
Not all magnaguards are the same. Surely you would know that. He was tiring quickly in that fight, you see him visibly panting after deflecting several strikes from them.

He might've been panting more due to the exhaustion of contending with Dooku and tanking MagnaGuard blows square on the back.

And does Anakin know there are different types of MGs? So far, until that point in time, he's only engaged the fodder MagnaGuards.

Originally posted by Kurk
overall recklessness doesn't translate into his saber technique but his overall character and the way he conducts himself.

Which will not change the fact that he's better than Jinn or TPM Obi.

Originally posted by Kurk
And please don't substitute dashes with two hyphens; it's alt + 0151 .

I'll write anyway I want, thank you very much. It's not even that big a difference, really.

Originally posted by Kurk
Is there any proof that AotC Kenobi is better than Qui Gon? Dooku trolled with Kenobi while Qui-Gon put up a hell of a fight against Maul using an extremely physically demanding form as a 60 year old man.

And this means something, why? Because your arbitrary ranking has to have Dooku and Maul neccessarily close? Sorry, but that's just head-canon.
As of TPM, Obi was already "stating his own" against Jinn as a swordsman, performing admirably well against him in spars and performing similarly well against Maul, not to mention being faster than him.

Add in over a decade of improvement and Obi's surpassing Jinn. Getting trolled by Dooku also isn't worse than getting goofed by Maul into leading you to an certain advantegous area, then killing you after 30 seconds, and being dead to rights against an injured Maul after a 30 second duel on Tatooine.

Besides, Dooku's canonically > Maul, anyways.

Originally posted by MythLord
He might've been panting more due to the exhaustion of contending with Dooku and tanking MagnaGuard blows square on the back.

Originally posted by MythLord

And does Anakin know there are different types of MGs? So far, until that point in time, he's only engaged the fodder MagnaGuards.

Originally posted by MythLord

Which will not change the fact that he's better than Jinn or TPM Obi.

Originally posted by MythLord

I'll write anyway I want, thank you very much. It's not even that big a difference, really.

Originally posted by MythLord

And this means something, why? Because your arbitrary ranking has to have Dooku and Maul neccessarily close? Sorry, but that's just head-canon.
As of TPM, Obi was already "stating his own" against Jinn as a swordsman, performing admirably well against him in spars and performing similarly well against Maul, not to mention being faster than him.

Add in over a decade of improvement and Obi's surpassing Jinn. Getting trolled by Dooku also isn't worse than getting goofed by Maul into leading you to an certain advantegous area, then killing you after 30 seconds, and being dead to rights against an injured Maul after a 30 second duel on Tatooine.

Besides, Dooku's canonically > Maul, anyways.

Regardless Anakin was having difficulty with the droids, yes?

Without focusing on them much? Sure.

I like how you just insulted his intelligence. Maybe he doesn't know, and he's also too stupid to realize that the droids he was fighting are leagues above those he fought before.

I'm not insulting his intelligence, I'm noting Anakin might not've been prepared for a greater opposition than the one he got from fighting previous MagnaGuards. People like Dooku have fallen for the trick of underestimating foes based on past experience, as well.

Is he stupid?

Maybe in terms of raw power, but not as a holistic fighter

He definitely is as a holistic fighter, as well. His ability to impress Tyranus, whereas someone who at least rivals Jinn gets trolled around, is enough to place him above both Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon's inferior.

Where does it say canonically that Dooku is better than Maul? Sounds a little hypocritical to call my reasons arbitrary and then say something like that. Nothing you've said so far supports the claim that AotC Kenobi > Qui Gon. Being able to contend with someone doesn't mean superior. Assuming Kenobi surpassed him in anyway post TPM is pure speculation which is—get a load of this—arbitrary.

Yeah, I'll assume one of the greatest Jedi ever won't improve at all over the course of a decade. Brilliant logic. 👆 The fact that he's giving Jinn hell and performing similarly to Jinn against the same foe is enough to mark them close by TPM. With a decade of improvement under his belt, AotC Obi should at least rival Jinn, but more-than-likely is his superior.

BTW, Dooku being > Maul, isn't arbitrary -- it's fact:

"More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku(a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones."

-- Star Wars Panel-to-Panel Volume 1

Originally posted by MythLord
Without focusing on them much? Sure.

I'm not insulting his intelligence, I'm noting Anakin might not've been prepared for a greater opposition than the one he got from fighting previous MagnaGuards. People like Dooku have fallen for the trick of underestimating foes based on past experience, as well.

Is he stupid?

He definitely is as a holistic fighter, as well. His ability to impress Tyranus, whereas someone who at least rivals Jinn gets trolled around, is enough to place him above both Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon's inferior.

Yeah, I'll assume one of the greatest Jedi ever won't improve at all over the course of a decade. Brilliant logic. 👆 The fact that he's giving Jinn hell and performing similarly to Jinn against the same foe is enough to mark them close by TPM. With a decade of improvement under his belt, AotC Obi should at least rival Jinn, but more-than-likely is his superior.

BTW, Dooku being > Maul, isn't arbitrary -- it's fact:

"More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku(a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones."

-- Star Wars Panel-to-Panel Volume 1

Originally posted by Kurk
LOL that book isn't even canon. You claimed that Dooku was canonically superior to Maul and you cited a picture book. What a fail. I don't know if you're a devious slime or just plain confused.

Canonically as in it's canon within a continuity, and it is canon in the EU. It isn't a picture book, lmao. It's a book that shows off the Expanded Universe continuity, specifically the comics, and it's perfectly valid for use.

You can't dimiss a source just cuz you don't like it.

I take it this weak excuse is all you've got and the rest is a concession?

Originally posted by MythLord
Canonically as in it's canon within a continuity, and it is canon in the EU. It isn't a picture book, lmao. It's a book that shows off the Expanded Universe continuity, specifically the comics, and it's perfectly valid for use.

You can't dimiss a source just cuz you don't like it.

I take it this weak excuse is all you've got and the rest is a concession?

There is nothing to concede to. You've failed in trying to prove that AotC Kenobi>Jinn and Dooku>Maul. Everything is speculation.

Originally posted by Kurk
no, no, no don't BS your way out of this. You know as I well as I do that you were referring to Disney canon but you couldn't pull a legit source to prove Dooku > Maul so now you try to twist it around.

I'm not darling. I always say "canonically", even when referring to the EU. You have to either be mentally retarded, or just not know me very well, to not realize that.

People I debate frequently or who know me and my debating style like Nova, Ant, Deronn and DMB can all testify to this. You're just trying to deny a source you don't like. 👆

Originally posted by Kurk
There is nothing to concede to. You've failed in trying to prove that AotC Kenobi>Jinn and Dooku>Maul. Everything is speculation.

I mean, I gave you a canonical quote(canonical in the EU, anyways) that proves, clear as day, Dooku is > Maul, and have given you reasoning as to why thinking Obi didn't improve at all would be moronic.

You can deny it all you want, that still counts as a concession. 👆

What is speculations is assuming a Jedi of Kenobi's calibre would stagnate for a decade only because "hurr durr theirs nu prof". Someone must be seriously brain damaged or hilariously biased to think he wouldn't surpass Jinn.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'm not darling. I always say "canonically", even when referring to the EU. You have to either be mentally retarded, or just not know me very well, to not realize that.

People I debate frequently or who know me and my debating style like Nova, Ant, Deronn and DMB can all testify to this. You're just trying to deny a source you don't like. 👆

I mean, I gave you a canonical quote(canonical in the EU, anyways) that proves, clear as day, Dooku is > Maul, and have given you reasoning as to why thinking Obi didn't improve at all would be moronic.

You can deny it all you want, that still counts as a concession. 👆

Again it's not a concession. Go back to the latest Dooku vs Maul thread and you'll see that in one of my posts I have Legends Dooku above Maul but not Canon Dooku.

Originally posted by Kurk
Well I'm not going to disagree that Legends Dooku is superior to Maul; I've said this before on my own accord. You haven't proven anything in regards to the new canon.

Again it's not a concession. Go back to the latest Dooku vs Maul thread and you'll see that in one of my posts I have Legends Dooku above Maul but not Canon Dooku.

Even in-canon, Dooku's just better than Maul. And I've been arguing the EU this entire time, friend. Keep up.

Originally posted by MythLord
Even in-canon, Dooku's just better than Maul. And I've been arguing the EU this entire time, friend. Keep up.

Originally posted by Kurk
Even if Dooku was better than Maul, would the disparity be great enough that Qui-Gon's 2 minute plus fight with Maul is somehow negated by Kenobi's 30 second failure with Dooku?

Yes, because Maul was playing defensive to lead Jinn away, and could've killed him after a 30 second duel on Tatooine where he had a leg injury. 👆

Wait, canon only... Well, I guess not, but then again, I'm not arguing canon-only, am I?

Originally posted by Kurk
lol you pay attention. He didn't dismantle them and force pushing them was ineffective. Anakin just pretends to ignore them since he wants to reach the ultimate goal, killing Dooku, so quickly without thinking.

So you'd keep your eye on the Magnaguards over Count Dooku?

lol don't be ridiculous. Anakin had no hope of winning there. He was simply outmatched. Nothing reckless about it.