Old Master Maul vs. Emperors Wrath II (Lightsabers only)

Originally posted by Petrus
Ahsoka being better than Maul is simply logical, tbh. Do you truly believe Maul would've given Vader the same trouble Ahsoka gave him during their fight at Malachor? It's clear that the gap between Ahsoka and Vader, although existent and noticeable, isn't as big as many previously thought. Ahsoka being close enough to Vader to actually give him a hard time

Well it's unclear how hard a time Vader was having against Ahsoka. The only things clear were 1) She was putting up a fight and 2)He was the clear superior in that fight.

Plus with Filoni saying Ahsoka can put up a fight against Vader because she knows him so well, and the fact that Maul and Ahsoka did fight, all gives me little reason to believe Ahsoka > Maul.

Originally posted by Petrus
and assuming or believing Maul = or > Vader is frankly ridiculous.

Yeah but who is. Vader > Maul/Dooku/Kenobi/ Ahsoka.. All of them. It's just about who would put up a slightly better fight, which seems to be down to who kno s him better.

Well, there's Quanchi, lol.

@Petrus

I can buy that Maul would neglect seeking Vader out for a straight up fight, and would rather undermine him somehow. As we know, Maul + 1 Mandalorian > Mace Windu and Aayla Secura, so yeno.

The nexus thing would certainly push my opinion of Ahsoka to a higher level. Problem is, I don't think canon has addressed nexuses yet. Until it does I wouldn't assume they work identically to how they do in Legends. As for showings; Maul was trouncing the three Inquisitors by himself, and Ahsoka has consistently trounced them. Unless you want to split hairs to the maximum, they seem pretty similar.

But yeah, we'll have to wait and see. My hopes aren't exactly high for Maul, but we'll see.

Originally posted by ILS
As we know, Maul + 1 Mandalorian > Mace Windu and Aayla Secura, so yeno.

Two other nice little tidbits:
- Maul reacted faster than Mace and was able to dodge the rocket
- Mace and Secure were newcomers to the fight that was already ongoing between Maul/Kenobi and Dooku.

Yet they both chose to gang up on Maul instead of Dooku, despite Mace being very familiar with Dooku(they were sparring buddies and very close for decades) and knowing Obi-Wan had a less than stellar record against him.

Did Mace instinctively assume Maul was a bigger threat than the good Count?

Originally posted by Unbowed
Haha, that's actually true isn't it? Mace and Secure were knocked out and could have been killed. 😆

Two other nice little tidbits:
- Maul reacted faster than Mace and was able to dodge the rocket
- Mace and Secure were newcomers to the fight that was already ongoing between Maul/Kenobi and Dooku.

Yet they both chose to gang up on Maul instead of Dooku, despite Mace being very familiar with Dooku(they were sparring buddies and very close for decades) and knowing Obi-Wan had a less than stellar record against him.

Did Mace instinctively assume Maul was a bigger threat than the good Count?

I get the feeling that Lucas would have never allowed Maul vs Vader to happen since he saw them as more or less equals. Not just in universe, but as symbols of the saga and potential $$$ makers. If they fought, the loser - obviously Maul, for continuity reasons - would be diminished.

Him bringing Maul back in a big way for TCW and later saving him when Filoni wanted him killed indicates to me that Lucas had a change of heart regarding Maul's character.

Of course Lucas is now gone and Filoni is a hack, so I fear for the worst.

The closest we ever got was Resurrection, wherein Maul was having the time of his life running rings around pre-ANH Vader but ended up losing anyway. But that was deemed non-canon by Leeland.

That's too bad since that was ironically the best possible depiction of the fight, consistent with the films and Lucas' vision.

Whoever wrote that really got the characters:

- Maul was the only other "pure" Sith in the saga other than Sidious, and a prodigy that was meant to be the culmination of the Banites. Vader was a Jedi who Sidious seduced because he couldn't resist turning the Jedi's prophecy against them.

- Maul dominating Vader in the fight is consistent with Lucas' statement about the PT duels being better because they had Jedi and Sith in their primes, not half-trained children and half-machine broken men(I'm paraphrasing).

- Vader ultimately "winning" out of sheer spite and self-loathing fits perfectly with the tragic persona Lucas created for him, not the superficial ultimate badass caricature that dominates everyone his fanboys want to believe in.

- I don't have to point how Maul's hubris getting the better of him despite him being the perfect fighter is consistent with the films lol

- at the end, we see the strain this plot Sidious cooked up puts on his and Vader's relationship. Vader was really getting tired of this shit.

All in all, it simply works. The fans of both characters can be content. Maul wins the fight but ultimately loses, which is the best he can hope for given the continuity. Vader ultimately remains top dog.

Originally posted by Unbowed
That's too bad since that was ironically the best possible depiction of the fight, consistent with the films and Lucas' vision.

Whoever wrote that really got the characters:

- Maul was the only other "pure" Sith in the saga other than Sidious, and a prodigy that was meant to be the culmination of the Banites. Vader was a Jedi who Sidious seduced because he couldn't resist turning the Jedi's prophecy against them.

- Maul dominating Vader in the fight is consistent with Lucas' statement about the PT duels being better because they had Jedi and Sith in their primes, not half-trained children and half-machine broken men(I'm paraphrasing).

- Vader ultimately "winning" out of sheer spite and self-loathing fits perfectly with the tragic persona Lucas created for him, not the superficial ultimate badass caricature that dominates everyone his fanboys want to believe in.

- I don't have to point how Maul's hubris getting the better of him despite him being the perfect fighter is consistent with the films lol

- at the end, we see the strain this plot Sidious cooked up puts on his and Vader's relationship. Vader was really getting tired of this shit.

All in all, it simply works. The fans of both characters can be content. Maul wins the fight but ultimately loses, which is the best he can hope for given the continuity. Vader ultimately remains top dog.

I preferred the arrogance being his achilles heel play much more than... whatever the hell Kanan beating him was. They're running out of ways to use him now.

Originally posted by Petrus
Well, there's Quanchi, lol.

Oh I totally understand how that would put you off Maul

Originally posted by Darth Thor
All hail Filoni

Originally posted by ILS
@Petrus

I can buy that Maul would neglect seeking Vader out for a straight up fight, and would rather undermine him somehow. As we know, Maul + 1 Mandalorian > Mace Windu and Aayla Secura, so yeno.

The nexus thing would certainly push my opinion of Ahsoka to a higher level. Problem is, I don't think canon has addressed nexuses yet. Until it does I wouldn't assume they work identically to how they do in Legends. As for showings; Maul was trouncing the three Inquisitors by himself, and Ahsoka has consistently trounced them. Unless you want to split hairs to the maximum, they seem pretty similar.

But yeah, we'll have to wait and see. My hopes aren't exactly high for Maul, but we'll see.

Hidalgo already said that the nexus amping Maul, Vader, ... Is only a possibility so it seems very unlikely that they took that into account when creating the fight scenes. Also dueling offscreen is hardly reliant in TotA otherwise you have to accept that Ahsoka couldn't get pased that Fifth Brother.

Originally posted by ILS
@Petrus

I can buy that Maul would neglect seeking Vader out for a straight up fight, and would rather undermine him somehow. As we know, Maul + 1 Mandalorian > Mace Windu and Aayla Secura, so yeno.

I hate how sometimes SW is maddeningly inconsistent. Based on his hype, accolades and his showing against Sidious, Windu + Secura should be solidly above Maul + 1 Mandalorian. Do you believe TCW/Rebels Maul > peak Windu?

The nexus thing would certainly push my opinion of Ahsoka to a higher level. Problem is, I don't think canon has addressed nexuses yet. Until it does I wouldn't assume they work identically to how they do in Legends. As for showings; Maul was trouncing the three Inquisitors by himself, and Ahsoka has consistently trounced them. Unless you want to split hairs to the maximum, they seem pretty similar.

But yeah, we'll have to wait and see. My hopes aren't exactly high for Maul, but we'll see.

Based on recent comments by Hidalgo, I'm not sure anymore the nexus exists and if it does, if it was even taken into account went writing the script of the fights in that last chapter. I believe it's logical for Malachor to be a DS nexus, and we do see the Inqs flying around with their lightsabers [something we never see them do off Malachor], but it's still not a certainty as of this moment. However, I still hold that Ahsoka is slightly superior to Maul even without the nexus. Keyword: slightly. I'm basing this opinion on Ahsoka's fight vs. Vader along with Filoni's comments, btw.

Originally posted by Petrus
I hate how sometimes SW is maddeningly inconsistent. Based on his hype, accolades and his showing against Sidious, Windu + Secura should be solidly above Maul + 1 Mandalorian. Do you believe TCW/Rebels Maul > peak Windu?

That doesn't mean Maul + 1 (2 actually but who cares) Mandalorians will defeat Windu and Secura consistently in a straight up fight. Or that Maul + growth comparable to, what the strength and fighting capabilities of one to two Mandalorians and/or a rocket launcher strapped to his back??, would > Windu and Secura in a fight.

It means the aforementioned Jedi can be KO'ed by a missile impact, nothing more lmfao.

All I meant by that is it makes sense if Maul would use an underhanded tactic like a Mandalorian missile to bridge the gap against Vader. Maybe an ion cannon or some shit.

Or the Death Star yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What's maddening is the logic here. Windu and Secura were distracted by Maul and then hit with a rocket launcher, temporarily KO'ing them.

That doesn't mean Maul + 1 (2 actually but who cares) Mandalorians will defeat Windu and Secura consistently in a straight up fight. Or that Maul + growth comparable to, what the strength and fighting capabilities of one to two Mandalorians and/or a rocket launcher strapped to his back??, would > Windu and Secura in a fight.

It means the aforementioned Jedi can be KO'ed by a missile impact, nothing more lmfao.

Well, that's a relief. 🙂

ILS has a point. It didn't take much help for Maul to use a surprise attack to defeat Windu + Secura. I doubt there's a large gap between that combined duo and Vader.

On the other hand Maul did only emphasis that he can't defeat Vader alone..

These surprise tactics can't usually be accounted for in duels though, at least it's not the norm in KMC [unless the OP specifies as much].

The problem is that we still don't know enough to place Maul's statement in it's proper context.

How would Maul know he can't defeat Vader? Did they previously meet? The Inquisitors were on Malachor hunting "the shadow", and mentioned there were rumors that Maul still lived. Were they hunting him of their own initiative, or on the orders of Vader? Did Sidious order Vader to destroy Maul(he seemed unconcerned at the end of SOD) or did Vader just see him as a threat?

I agree with ILS' assessment that it's unlikely that Maul was talking simply about a lightsaber duel between him and Vader, but rather about their conflict in the larger sense, about his revenge.

" - You know about the Inquisitor?
- He is my enemy. All Inquisitors and their masters are my enemies."

Even if Maul think Vader is stronger, he isn't above ganging up on him or laying a trap. He did manage to capture both Grievous and Dooku, after all. But in this case he can't. Vader is the #2 man in the Empire. He has the unlimited resources of the empire on his side and a whole cadre of Force users doing his bidding. And he is very strong himself.

Maul has no allies, no resources, no military army. He knows that, if anything, Vader is the one who will gang up on him, that he's likely to show up with a battalion of stormtroopers and a few Inquisitors at his back if he catches Maul's scent.