Revan and Arcann vs Darth Vader and Ahsoka Tano

Originally posted by darthbane77
The text doesn't say he became more powerful than Plagueis' upon Damask's death, it only makes note that Sidious increased in power.

Please read what I say so I don't have to repeat myself. The text notes that Sidious became more powerful, and other sources confirm his superiority. The novel's claim that he grew more powerful is just a reasonable basis for that. Justification, if you will, since they were only about equal before that.

The novel version of Revan is counted I agree. I don't count SoR Revan as an enemy of the darkness as much as an extension of darkness opposing another extension of darkness, much like rivalry between Sith. They're both dark, but are arrayed against each other.

Alright.

He also states that he is no longer Sith, the quote to which you're referring was based on the knowledge that the Coalition had at the time, they assumed Vitiate was still Sith; therefore the quote reflects as much because it's expressing and recapping what the player already knows before beginning KOTFE.

Traya would suggest that Nihilus isn't Sith, but we know he is.

The quote I'm referring to is a codex entry, which isn't limited to character information at all. In fact it frequently discloses character backstories that the protagonists would have no way of finding out.

Vitiate hid his presence from the Jedi for over a thousand years.

By hiding from the known galaxy? Sidious was under their nose, lol.

Jedi Master Baral Ovair was a Sith spy who hid himself from the Jedi for decades as well, which means it's possible to easily hide from the Jedi for more than just the ultra powerful Sith, so that alone takes away from Sidious' feat.

Too bad Ovair was hiding himself from randoms, not the Jedi during their Golden Age.

Revan being (arguably) hindered a DS nexus against Vitiate who would have been amped by the nexus.

Revan being hindered by a nexus isn't exactly a showing that puts him up there with the best. 🙂

Seriously, though, Vitiate wrecked him with Lightning. Revan only ever pushed Vitiate back with either his lightsaber or when Vitiate was distracted.

Contending (twice) and barely falling to a strike team consisting of the 8 protags at the Temple of Sacrifice, and then again at the Forgotten Terrace against an almost equally impressive strike team, both teams being superior to the B-team that Sheev steamrolled.

The fact that Sheev steamrolled them means that it isn't really a valid comparison, lol.

Where is it stated that the fight without NPC's was incredibly difficult? Because all the protags would be far greater than the team with the NPC's, which was already a loss for an amped Revan.

Causing a galaxy wide disturbance in the Force that left many Force users (such as Lana Beniko) shaken and doubting themselves.

Maul/Savage-tier.

And that's just novel and SoR feats, others that I think are at least somewhat comparable would be Revan bwing hindered while fighting through the Star Forge non-stop against dozens upon dozens of amped Sith and SF droids and then fighting an amped Dark Bastila and Darth Malak back to back, as well as fighting his way out of the Valley of the Dark Lords and through the Dreshdae settlement against the hundreds of Sith that were present at the time; Revan would have, once again, been hindered by the DS Nexus on Korriban while his opponents were amped.

Beating lots and lots of fodder is more of a stamina feat than anything else.

On a side note, I think I'm getting better at this, lol.

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment. 🙂

Originally posted by SunRazer
Savage-tier.

Worse yet, a lie.

Edited to Maul/Savage-tier. Making Force users across the galaxy uncomfortable is exactly he said, and that's what Maul's revival did.

Stop being dramatic, by the way.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Stop being dramatic, by the way.

Can't take away a man's MO.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Edited to Maul/Savage-tier. Making Force users across the galaxy uncomfortable is exactly he said, and that's what Maul's revival did.

Stop being dramatic, by the way.

Maul's revival was the same as like the destruction of Alderaan or another sudden and then fleeing disturbance.

The only one's who sensed Opress' growing strength was Dooku, who had ties with Opress.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Please read what I say so I don't have to repeat myself. The text notes that Sidious became more powerful, and [b]other sources confirm his superiority. The novel's claim that he grew more powerful is just a reasonable basis for that. Justification, if you will, since they were only about equal before that.

Alright.

Traya would suggest that Nihilus isn't Sith, but we know he is.

The quote I'm referring to is a codex entry, which isn't limited to character information at all. In fact it frequently discloses character backstories that the protagonists would have no way of finding out.

By hiding from the known galaxy? Sidious was under their nose, lol.

Too bad Ovair was hiding himself from randoms, not the Jedi during their Golden Age.

Revan being hindered by a nexus isn't exactly a showing that puts him up there with the best. 🙂

Seriously, though, Vitiate wrecked him with Lightning. Revan only ever pushed Vitiate back with either his lightsaber or when Vitiate was distracted.

The fact that Sheev steamrolled them means that it isn't really a valid comparison, lol.

Where is it stated that the fight without NPC's was incredibly difficult? Because all the protags would be far greater than the team with the NPC's, which was already a loss for an amped Revan.

Maul/Savage-tier.

Beating lots and lots of fodder is more of a stamina feat than anything else.

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment. 🙂 [/B]

Nihilus' status as a Sith is arguable, he doesn't even see the galaxy like normal people see it anymore. He's a pure Dark Side entity driven only by his hunger, he cares nothing for the Sith teachings, he only uses them to decrease the time between buffet visits.

I know it was a codex entry, and I also covered it pretty well. I figured you'd make that exact argument, which is why I included by statement about it being up to date only with what the player knows up until starting KOTFE. It's more of a "Previously on SWTOR" than anything else.

Sure Vitiate was hiding, but the Jedi suspected something was out there, the fact they had no idea what it was and had no evidence whatsoever to suggest he was there means he was hiding from them pretty well.

No names or not, Ovair hid from the Jedi Order, right under their noses. As in WITHIN the Jedi temple, a Light Side Nexus. Which likely would have been more difficult to do than hiding from the Senate building. Also, Sidious and Plagueis ritual shifting the balance of the Force made it easier for him to hide in the first place. So he was really only able to hide from them thanks to Plagueis' help, he didn't do it solely through his own power. And the Dark Side's power grew even further upon the start of the Clone Wars, which would have made it even easier for him to hide than it already was. Ovair had no help and was able to hide his Dark Side power from the entirety of that time's Jedi Order while on a nexus of Light Side power for decades. When you think of it like that, Sheev's feat gets way more unimpressive.

Revan being hindered is what makes the feat impressive, lol. He wasn't at full power and yet he managed to send Vitiate flying backwards on a DS Nexus where Vitiate would have had power above his already immense norm, and then Revan was able to almost completely negate lightning that was "infinitely more powerful" than Nyriss'; who's lightning was already powerful enough to turn people into charred husks or ash, and Revan negated so much of it that he escaped with only 2nd or 3rd degree burns when his ashes should have been turned into ashes.

The comparison is valid when the Force using protags have feats on par with shit that some of the PT council have, and then considering the fact that there were more of them fighting Revan than that went to fight Sheev.

It's not outright stated that it was incredibly difficult, but we can guess from what Bioware devs said that it was. Revan is compared alongside Vitiate as the most powerful being in the entirety of the Old Republic era, making Revan second only to Vitiate as of SoR. And, while game mechanics are not solid as evidence, they do give minor outlines of how something would have played out in-universe. As I said in my RT for HK-47 "I want to make a note though. I know the gameplay portions I use are heavily reliant on game mechanics to make the games more fun to play. However, they're still good evidence, as it's only logical to assume that if a character is chosen to be a boss fight that they're obviously supposed to be a challenge or a threat to the characters in-universe." And by this rather solid logic, and the fact that Bioware said that Revan was the most difficult operation boss in the game to that point, would imply that the in-universe fight with Revan would have been highly difficult for the strike team. All that on top of Revan being stated as far more powerful than any one of the protags, and then scaling him from his other feats and seeing that none of the protags stack up, it becomes common sense that Revan would have posed an immense threat to them.

Impressive nonetheless, and Savage didn't have the same effects on the minds of people like Lana that Revan had.

Not when those "fodder" are stated as being master of lightsaber combat and are not only attacking in groups, but are also being amped by the Star Forge, one of the most potent Dark Side Nexus' in history.

Oh come on, be honest. It's obvious I've improved at debating since I started on CV as well as this site.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Alright, well provide those sources and I might concede the point. Otherwise I'll assuming you're blowing smoke up my ass.

I told you to check my TPM RT. I hate having to format lots of quotes over on CV, so you'll just have to deal with this:

For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
Source: Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with every generation.
Source: Force & Destiny

The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one—the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.
Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary

The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.
Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred. Darth Sidious proved to be the splendid culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.
Source: Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.
Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Nihilus' status as a Sith is arguable, he doesn't even see the galaxy like normal people see it anymore. He's a pure Dark Side entity driven only by his hunger, he cares nothing for the Sith teachings, he only uses them to decrease the time between buffet visits.

It's not arguable. Objective sources label him as a Sith. That's the end of it.

I know it was a codex entry, and I also covered it pretty well. I figured you'd make that exact argument, which is why I included by statement about it being up to date only with what the player knows up until starting KOTFE. It's more of a "Previously on SWTOR" than anything else.

SWTOR codex entries have never been limited to player knowledge. As I said, they reveal character backstories that the player has no way of finding out otherwise.

Sure Vitiate was hiding, but the Jedi suspected something was out there, the fact they had no idea what it was and had no evidence whatsoever to suggest he was there means he was hiding from them pretty well.

Nobody had any idea what was out there except Revan, Malak, Surik and Kreia.

No names or not, Ovair hid from the Jedi Order, right under their noses. As in WITHIN the Jedi temple, a Light Side Nexus. Which likely would have been more difficult to do than hiding from the Senate building. Also, Sidious and Plagueis ritual shifting the balance of the Force made it easier for him to hide in the first place. So he was really only able to hide from them thanks to Plagueis' help, he didn't do it solely through his own power. And the Dark Side's power grew even further upon the start of the Clone Wars, which would have made it even easier for him to hide than it already was. Ovair had no help and was able to hide his Dark Side power from the entirety of that time's Jedi Order while on a nexus of Light Side power for decades. When you think of it like that, Sheev's feat gets way more unimpressive.

Prove that it's a "light side nexus", which I haven't seen proof of existence for.

Sidious' feats don't go way more unimpressive at all. Yoda is extremely powerful and perceptive - moreso than any of those Jedi in the Timeline video. Hiding from him is a much better showing than hiding from the Masters in Ovair's time.

Revan being hindered is what makes the feat impressive, lol.

It was a joke. You mentioned that Revan was hindered but forgot to mention the actual (supposed) feat of contending with Vitiate. I could tell what you were trying to say - I was just messing with you.

He wasn't at full power and yet he managed to send Vitiate flying backwards on a DS Nexus where Vitiate would have had power above his already immense norm, and then Revan was able to almost completely negate lightning that was "infinitely more powerful" than Nyriss'; who's lightning was already powerful enough to turn people into charred husks or ash, and Revan negated so much of it that he escaped with only 2nd or 3rd degree burns when his ashes should have been turned into ashes.

Revan only pushed Vitiate back when Vitiate was distracted with a futile effort to try and dominate Revan's mind. Revan was wrecked, lol. He doesn't need to be incinerated for him to have been curbed. If you're left on the floor unable to move, then you've been curbed. That's all there is to it.

The comparison is valid when the Force using protags have feats on par shit that some of the PT council have, and then considering the fact that were more of them fighting Revan than that went to fight Sheev.

It's not valid when Revan loses and Sidious slaughters, though.

It's not outright stated that it was incredibly difficult, but we can guess from what Bioware devs said that it was. Revan is compared alongside Vitiate as the most powerful being in the entirety of the Old Republic era, making Revan second only to Vitiate as of SoR. And, while game mechanics are not solid as evidence, they do give minor outlines of how something would have played out in-universe. As I said in my RT for HK-47 "I want to make a note though. I know the gameplay portions I use are heavily reliant on game mechanics to make the games more fun to play. However, they're still good evidence, as it's only logical to assume that if a character is chosen to be a boss fight that they're obviously supposed to be a challenge or a threat to the characters in-universe." And by this rather solid logic, and the fact that Bioware said that Revan was the most difficult operation boss in the game to that point, would imply that the in-universe fight with Revan would have been highly difficult for the strike team. All that on top of Revan being stated as far more powerful than any one of the protags, and then scaling him from his other feats and seeing that none of the protags stack up, it becomes common sense that Revan would have posed an immense threat to them.

The thing is, if Revan lost to an inferior team, he's not providing the same level of challenge to a much stronger team.

Impressive nonetheless, and Savage didn't have the same effects on the minds of people like Lana that Revan had.

I meant Maul, sorry. But yeah, this doesn't put Revan up there with Sidious, who was generating weather storms across the galaxy just by appearing as a hologram.

Not when those "fodder" are stated as being master of lightsaber combat and are not only attacking in groups, but are also being amped by the Star Forge, one of the most potent Dark Side Nexus' in history.

They're fodder compared to these elites. Which is why when the elites tear through them, it's more to do with stamina than anything else.

Oh come on, be honest. It's obvious I've improved at debating since I started on CV as well as this site.

It's called plausible deniability in case you start to decline, lol.

Seriously, though? Yeah, everybody here has improved over the last few months. Except Ant. He's like an overcooked fish on Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares that keeps getting cooked more and more because the amateur chefs don't know how to turn off the gas. 🙂

DB77 trashing Nova.

BTW, Nova, if you ask around, a lot of the guys will say you significantly declined in debating.

I don't want to name names, but hopefully some will come-forward and 👆.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DB77 trashing Nova.

BTW, Nova, if you ask around, a lot of the guys will say you significantly declined in debating.

I don't want to name names, but hopefully some will come-forward and 👆.

They've said it to me openly, lol. I don't really care though, I don't debate for prestige like you.

On the other hand, you probably cried over the flak you got in those threads, lol.

I don't debate for prestige. I already have prestige. I debate to keep it.

Not after those threads, you don't. 🙂

What the hell are "those threads"?

The one I'm raping you in ATM?

Sunrazer the same guy who won't debate anyone in a judged debate. Quit trolling ant, Sunrazer. You have no class and no balls.

👆

Those threads you made in the EU Discussion board that consisted of you having your shit pushed in and even your friends turning against you, lmfao.

You just love to be dramatic and spam insults and then claim you're raping, lmfao.

The Plagueis stuff? I concede that Plagueis was indeed involved in the mental war, but ultimately it took the combined efforts of half-a-dozen individual's to bring down my argument. It was effectively Revan vs a coalition strike team. My reformed argument concerning Revan, and the parity found with it and the Plagueis feat, stands though. No one has yet tried to form a rebuttal to it.

Why won't Sunrazer agree to a judged debate with anyone. He is yellow.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I told you to check my TPM RT. I hate having to format lots of quotes over on CV, so you'll just have to deal with this:

It's not arguable. Objective sources label him as a Sith. That's the end of it.

SWTOR codex entries have never been limited to player knowledge. As I said, they reveal character backstories that the player has no way of finding out otherwise.

Nobody had any idea what was out there except Revan, Malak, Surik and Kreia.

Prove that it's a "light side nexus", which I haven't seen proof of existence for.

Sidious' feats don't go way more unimpressive at all. Yoda is extremely powerful and perceptive - moreso than any of those Jedi in the Timeline video. Hiding from him is a much better showing than hiding from the Masters in Ovair's time.

It was a joke. You mentioned that Revan was hindered but forgot to mention the actual (supposed) feat of contending with Vitiate. I could tell what you were trying to say - I was just messing with you.

Revan only pushed Vitiate back when Vitiate was distracted with a futile effort to try and dominate Revan's mind. Revan was wrecked, lol. He doesn't need to be incinerated for him to have been curbed. If you're left on the floor unable to move, then you've been curbed. That's all there is to it.

It's not valid when Revan loses and Sidious slaughters, though.

The thing is, if Revan lost to an inferior team, he's not providing the same level of challenge to a much stronger team.

I meant Maul, sorry. But yeah, this doesn't put Revan up there with Sidious, who was generating weather storms across the galaxy just by appearing as a hologram.

They're fodder compared to these elites. Which is why when the elites tear through them, it's more to do with stamina than anything else.

It's called plausible deniability in case you start to decline, lol.

Seriously, though? Yeah, everybody here has improved over the last few months. Except Ant. He's like an overcooked fish on Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares that keeps getting cooked more and more because the amateur chefs don't know how to turn off the gas. 🙂

There are also sources saying he isn't Sith, and then when we look at how Nihilus acts in-universe, when we examine his motivations, personality, etc, none of that is anything like a Sith outside of his using the Dark Side. So while there are sources saying Nihilus is a Sith, none of those are supported, where-as the ones stating he ISN'T Sith, are supported by the character himself.

The codex entry, from what I remember of it, literally just summarizes what's been up with Vitiate and friends up to that point, which is pre-starting KOTFE. So it's entirely relegated to knowledge that the player already possess while getting any new players up to speed.

The Jedi Council, during the Mandalorian Wars, suspected something in the shadows that spurred the Mando's aggression; they knew something was there but their vision was clouded. Much like the vision of the Council in the PT era.

The mountain on which the Jedi Temple rests is states as being a Force Nexus, while it doesn't specify "light side" it's likely safe to assume it was light side considering the mountain was the site of the JEDI Temple, meaning a **** ton of light side energy saturating the mountain via the thousands of Jedi.

Except that Yoda is ONE Jedi, and no matter how perceptive he was, he was still blinded through the Force by the immense DS energy in the galaxy courtesy of the previously mentioned ritual and the subsequent war several years down the road. Sidious wouldn't have needed to try very to hard to hide is the point, where-as Ovair would have needed to do so when hiding within the heart of the Jedi Order itself.

Ah, sorry. I didn't catch on that you were joking, my mistake.

Except that Revan wasn't left immobilized, he got up shortly afterwards and was was ready to fight again.

It's valid when the strike team Sidious slaughtered was vastly inferior to either of the strike teams that Revan faced barring the presence of Windu, none of the Jedi in the B-Team were equals to any of the Force users on either Strike Team that Revan faced (again, barring Windu).

That's the beauty of it, the first strike team isn't THAT much better than the second one. Based on hype, Marr and Shan should be pretty close in strength to any of the Force using protags. Not super close in strength, but still pretty comparable.

Revan's effect on the minds of Force users was still more potent than Maul's return was, by quite a lot actually.

When compared to elites, sure those Sith are fodder. But not in the context of how it happened. They still would have been a danger to Revan while being hindered on a DS nexus and being heavily outnumberd. Keeping in mind that this was anewly reformed Revan who had his Force powers back for maybe a year by the time the attack on the SF happened, so he was nowhere near his prime at the time and was still able to push through odds that would make most Jedi cry.

"He's like an overcooked fish on Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares that keeps getting cooked more and more because the amateur chefs don't know how to turn off the gas." No offense to Ant, but that is pretty funny, haha.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Plagueis stuff? I concede that Plagueis was indeed involved in the mental war, but ultimately it took the combined efforts of half-a-dozen individual's to bring down my argument. It was effectively Revan vs a coalition strike team. My reformed argument concerning Revan, and the parity found with it and the Plagueis feat, stands though. No one has yet tried to form a rebuttal to it.

It's more than just the Plagueis stuff. Also, the amount of people against you just tells how you disrespected your argument was, lol.

Anyways, Plagueis shits on Revan since he was near-death and could still atomize armored non-Force sensitives with his Force Waves, whereas Revan/Vaylin etc. couldn't in perfect health 💃

Well that's the only thing I concede too. The rest is your bias, which we all know is strong and bad.

Revan can disintegrate Darth Nyriss, which is far more impressive than that.