Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well that's the only thing I concede too. The rest is your bias, which we all know is strong and bad.Revan can disintegrate Darth Nyriss, which is far more impressive than that.
That's not TK. That's redirecting somebody else's Lightning. We're discussing Force Waves 🙂
Originally posted by darthbane77
None of those quotes prove that Sidious was > Plagueis post Hego's death.
They do. That's part of the whole "culmination" and "most powerful of the Banite Sith" stuff. Then there's the quote about Chancellor Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Master ever.
Simply because there was no fight, there was no test of power or skill to prove either one's superiority
So? You don't need a fight to prove everything.
and then when we consider Luceno's quote it becomes obvious that Plagueis was superior to Sidious, at least in a combative sense.
Author quotes aren't to be considered, as I said.
The wording of the comment "undermine" suggests that Plagueis would win through something unorthodox as opposed to overpowering Palpatine, by the way.
And before you bring up the "Sidious was only superior after Plagueis died" I'm pretty sure I addressed that already.
You didn't, really.
There are also sources saying he isn't Sith, and then when we look at how Nihilus acts in-universe, when we examine his motivations, personality, etc, none of that is anything like a Sith outside of his using the Dark Side. So while there are sources saying Nihilus is a Sith, none of those are supported, where-as the ones stating he ISN'T Sith, are supported by the character himself.
Which source states that he isn't Sith? Kreia's opinion?
Nihilus doesn't care for Sith philosophy - but he's titled as a Sith Lord. Therefore, he's a Sith.
The codex entry, from what I remember of it, literally just summarizes what's been up with Vitiate and friends up to that point, which is pre-starting KOTFE. So it's entirely relegated to knowledge that the player already possess while getting any new players up to speed.
The codex repeatedly states information beyond what the player knows when discussing other characters - ie. enemies like Tarnis or Praven or some such. It's not limited to character knowledge at all.
The Jedi Council, during the Mandalorian Wars, suspected something in the shadows that spurred the Mando's aggression; they knew something was there but their vision was clouded. Much like the vision of the Council in the PT era.
That doesn't mean they knew there was a Sith Lord who did it.
The mountain on which the Jedi Temple rests is states as being a Force Nexus, while it doesn't specify "light side" it's likely safe to assume it was light side considering the mountain was the site of the JEDI Temple, meaning a **** ton of light side energy saturating the mountain via the thousands of Jedi.
Yes, it is a Force nexus. But no source has ever established the existence of a "light side nexus". It's up to you to prove that it is a light side nexus. Nowhere have havens of the Jedi ever been stated to be LS nexuses - only Force nexuses. So why would this be different?
Except that Yoda is ONE Jedi, and no matter how perceptive he was, he was still blinded through the Force by the immense DS energy in the galaxy courtesy of the previously mentioned ritual and the subsequent war several years down the road. Sidious wouldn't have needed to try very to hard to hide is the point, where-as Ovair would have needed to do so when hiding within the heart of the Jedi Order itself.
Sources state that Sidious is just so strong that he couldn't be sensed, and that was the case when Plagueis tried to sense him as well.
But the mental war thing is another feat for TPM Palpatine that I could've mentioned earlier (I avoided it due to the circumstances) in response to your "Revan affecting the galaxy" stuff.
Except that Revan wasn't left immobilized, he got up shortly afterwards and was was ready to fight again.
He only got up after being saved twice by T3 and Meetra. T3 in particular stopped Vitiate's Lightning from killing him.
It's valid when the strike team Sidious slaughtered was vastly inferior to either of the strike teams that Revan faced barring the presence of Windu, none of the Jedi in the B-Team were equals to any of the Force users on either Strike Team that Revan faced (again, barring Windu).
Well, you did just say they were equals, but this is better.
It's not valid when we don't know how Revan approached the fight. he didn't charge headlong into them and start blitzing. They didn't fight even remotely the same. Sidious didn't even use the Force offensively. The comparison doesn't make much sense.
That's the beauty of it, the first strike team isn't THAT much better than the second one. Based on hype, Marr and Shan should be pretty close in strength to any of the Force using protags. Not super close in strength, but still pretty comparable.
Well, apparently HoT was already above Shan by Act I/early Act II.
That aside, you've only got Marr and Shan. None of the others compare.
Revan's effect on the minds of Force users was still more potent than Maul's return was, by quite a lot actually.
They both just sensed huge disturbances. TOR had the fancier wording, that's basically it.
When compared to elites, sure those Sith are fodder. But not in the context of how it happened. They still would have been a danger to Revan while being hindered on a DS nexus and being heavily outnumberd. Keeping in mind that this was anewly reformed Revan who had his Force powers back for maybe a year by the time the attack on the SF happened, so he was nowhere near his prime at the time and was still able to push through odds that would make most Jedi cry.
They're fodder compared to Revan, seeing as Revan was able to beat Malak under terrible circumstances right afterwards.
Originally posted by SunRazerNo, they really don't. I take Banite scaling with a grain of salt, as a lot of it doesn't match up with feats. Just as well, we don't know how much more powerful each subsequent Sith was from the one before. I mean, Bane has feats that can be easily compared to things that Sidious has done, so the gaps couldn't have been that huge. So even IF TPM Sidious was superior to Plagueis immediately following Hego's death, the disparoty would likely have been minimal, and that's even if it's existent at all. But as far as accolades go, the RoT scaling quotes are blanket statements. Sidious never proved his superiority to Plagueis in any way, he has no feat pre- Clone Wars era that top anything Plagueis has done. It's much more likely than Sidious killing Plagueis upon receiving the "skill and ability to do so" refers to Palpatine finally have the means to be able to do it, not necessarily being superior to him. And again, nothing suggests that the power increase Sheev received upon Hego's death really proves that the power boost moved him beyond Plagueis.
They do. That's part of the whole "culmination" and "most powerful of the Banite Sith" stuff. Then there's the quote about Chancellor Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Master ever.So? You don't need a fight to prove everything.
Author quotes aren't to be considered, as I said.
The wording of the comment "undermine" suggests that Plagueis would win through something unorthodox as opposed to overpowering Palpatine, by the way.
You didn't, really.
Which source states that he isn't Sith? Kreia's opinion?
Nihilus doesn't care for Sith philosophy - but he's titled as a Sith Lord. Therefore, he's a Sith.
The codex repeatedly states information beyond what the player knows when discussing other characters - ie. enemies like Tarnis or Praven or some such. It's not limited to character knowledge at all.
That doesn't mean they knew there was a Sith Lord who did it.
Yes, it is a Force nexus. But no source has ever established the existence of a "light side nexus". It's up to you to prove that it is a light side nexus. Nowhere have havens of the Jedi ever been stated to be LS nexuses - only Force nexuses. So why would this be different?
Sources state that Sidious is just so strong that he couldn't be sensed, and that was the case when Plagueis tried to sense him as well.
But the mental war thing is another feat for TPM Palpatine that I could've mentioned earlier (I avoided it due to the circumstances) in response to your "Revan affecting the galaxy" stuff.
He only got up after being saved twice by T3 and Meetra. T3 in particular stopped Vitiate's Lightning from killing him.
Well, you did just say they were equals, but this is better.
It's not valid when we don't know how Revan approached the fight. he didn't charge headlong into them and start blitzing. They didn't fight even remotely the same. Sidious didn't even use the Force offensively. The comparison doesn't make much sense.
Well, apparently HoT was already above Shan by Act I/early Act II.
That aside, you've only got Marr and Shan. None of the others compare.
They both just sensed huge disturbances. TOR had the fancier wording, that's basically it.
They're fodder compared to Revan, seeing as Revan was able to beat Malak under terrible circumstances right afterwards.
You mean "author quotes aren't to be considered when they punch a bigass hole in my argument" right?
It could mean through unorthodox methods, but it might not, or it could just be Luceno deciding to be vague as hell like so many of these authors do. There are many ways to look at what Luceno said, the most likely meaning is that Plagueis is > TPM Sheev.
Pretty sure I did, maybe not. Either way I think I might have in one of the above counters, but I'm too tired atm to give a rat's ass about this specific point, mostly because I don't wanna look through all my other posts on this thread right now.
Kreia, Nihilus' master, the one that trained him, a person who knows him first hand (heh heh) and has experienced Nihilus' power, motivations, etc with her mind and body, said Nihilus isn't Sith. And literally EVERYTHING about Nihilus, minus his moniker, says he isn't Sith.
Tarnis and Praven aren't within player knowledge? I seem to remember encountering them both during my Jedi Knight play through. Boom, player knowledge, the codex entry is a recap.
They suspected as much though.
Well I mean, Shaak-Ti created an LS nexus on Felucia did she not? If one Jedi can do that then why wouldn't a haven of Jedi being constantly in the same place for several thousand years do the same? Your point sounds stupid now that you look at it through the eyes of common sense doesn't it?
The power of the Dark Side was hiding kid Sheev, it's not like he was doing it of his own accord. It was something he had no control over.
Sorry, what mental war? I think I might have missed that.
He was still able to get up. Based on what you originally said, you implied he was unable to or would have been unable to do so. Which is, as we see in the novel, blatantly false.
If gameplay trailers are to be used, one of them shows Revan running at the strike team when they arrived. We know in the actual game though that Revan unleashed a Force Wave to send everybody flying across the Terrace. He, logically, would probably have done something similar in the Temple of Sacrifice.
We have Marr and Shan, who compare well with any of the other Force Users in the fights, we have the HoT in both fights, we also have Lana Beniko. Lana, while not necessarily very comparable to the others, proved to be very strong in her own right, so there's that. Then we have Shae Viszla and Theron Shan, both of which who have killed Jedi and Sith Lords respectively, so we have 4 powerful Force users, 2 Jedi killer non-Force Users, and Jakarro, a hulking brute of Wookie that would be a threat to just anybody barring maybe Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. So yeah, the second strike team is pretty much on par with the first team, but they are inferior overall. Also keep in mind that Revan losing the first fight likely made him weaker, which is why the second team was able to defeat him. Full strength Revan (as he was when he fought in the Temple) vs the Strike team on the Terrace, probably would have ended differently.
Satele saying that the HoT was the best of the Jedi at the time is fallacious honestly. He has no feats to suggest it was true. A comparison can be made to the quotes stating Anakin Skywalker as the most powerful Jedi of his era, something that's contradicted by Yoda's accolades, and more importantly, feats. It's the same exact thing, it's to bring emphasis to the fact that the HoT/Anakin are the main charcaters of their respective time periods, nothing more.
Considering the disturbance Revan caused was stated to be all of the below, I'd say the effect Revan had on the Force was much more significant than the Jedi briefly sensing a disturbance upon Maul's return to life.
"There's something in the Force that I've never felt before. It exists nowhere and everywhere at once. Writhing, growing. I think I sense this "growth" because I'm tied to it somehow, maybe by association to Darth Arkous. I think… I think the Empire's in terrible danger."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"If I'm wrong, it means my instincts are now deeply flawed. Considering the strange disturbance I sense that continues to pervade the Force, I worry that these concerns are merely the figments of a deranged mind."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"The Force moves through the Emperor's Hand in a manner that few others experience. For us, the Force is an intricate tapestry woven into our very essence. That tapestry has become flawed. I speak of a persistent disturbance. A cyst, dense and tangled and unpleasant. It began small and nearly imperceptible but has been growing ever larger... the source of this basal disturbance is of the gravest concern to us..."
―The Emperor's Hand (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"The Force roils and convulses like never before. I reached out to study its peculiar activity, and in turn it showed me what is to come. You stand on a moon, defiantly, before one who is not one. You do not stand alone, but you fail all the same."
―Spindrall (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"No. They weren't in charge. The disturbance in the Force, I still feel it. It's... arrived."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Fodder compared to a Dooku/Windu+ combatant isn't exactly a bad thing considering how damn strong that actually is, lol.
To bring special attention to this quote
"The Force roils and convulses like never before. I reached out to study its peculiar activity, and in turn it showed me what is to come. You stand on a moon, defiantly, before one who is not one. You do not stand alone, but you fail all the same."
―Spindrall (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Not the beginning "The Force roils and convulses like never before." This would imply that the Force is, at this time undergoing a change unlike anything seen before that point in time. Which would also imply a galaxy wide effect on the Force, something felt by all Force users, a potential shift in the balance of the Force even; something only Vitiate and the combined ability of Plagueis and TPM Sids were able to achieve. That's another potential feat for Revan that places him on Sheev's level.
And this quote.
"The Force moves through the Emperor's Hand in a manner that few others experience. For us, the Force is an intricate tapestry woven into our very essence. That tapestry has become flawed. I speak of a persistent disturbance. A cyst, dense and tangled and unpleasant. It began small and nearly imperceptible but has been growing ever larger... the source of this basal disturbance is of the gravest concern to us..."
―The Emperor's Hand (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Revan's presence is described as a flaw in the Force, an cyst continually growing in strength and potency. Yet another example, and more proof, that the effect Revan had on the Force was far deeper and more dangerous than almost anybody on this forum cares to admit.