Originally posted by SunRazerI said as much already, that doesn't change that they are still very impressive in their own rights.
Well, but still below them.She's not comparable to any of the Force using protags.
There's still another four protags, who shit on these characters.
I don't believe it. A hindered novel Revan was able to heal himself from much worse. I don't see why an amped SoR Revan couldn't heal himself from this.
I said as much already, but she's still very powerful. And her showings are enough to solidify her as a powerful addition to the strike team she was on.
They don't "shit" on them, but they are solidly superior. With the exception of Shae Vizsla, she's easily comparable to any of the non-Force using protags. And as I already stated, weaker team for a weakened Revan. Had Revan been at full strength against the second team he very likely would have won.
There's nothing to suggest Revan was amped, the entirety of Yavin IV wasn't a nexus. Any "amp" Revan received was negligible, as none of the Dark Side characters made any reference to feeling stronger on Yavin and no light side characters made reference to feeling weaker. So there likely wasn't an amp for anybody. The fact that Revan lost to them and first and then was able to come back for more almost immediately afterwards is incredibly impressive, despite your nonsensical opinion to the contrary, which seems to be what you're implying.
Originally posted by darthbane77
Was I mocking you? If it seemed like that then I apologize, I don't mock people that I hold with high respect. I was just busting your balls.
Not you, the others. Although Beni and Syn are trolling and Quanchi's angry about the size of his belly after I impregnated him in the other thread.
I hold feats above accolades, as accolades can be fallacious; feats cannot.
Actually, they can. And they can definitely have circumstances.
I jump around a lot concerning the Revan>Nihilus quote honestly, at one point I'll have more stock in it than at another given time and vice verse. Revan's feats are comparable at least though, and I think powerscaling supports the possibility of Revan's superiority. Though I'll admit that Nihilus likely isn't very far behind Revan, they're likely pretty close to each other. Nihilus is one of the characters I currently hold in the same league as Caedus and Sidious, alongside Revan.
Powerscaling doesn't put Revan above Nihilus, and Nihilus' feats are easily, easily better.
I have examples to counter two of those arguments. Bane collapsing the Rakatan Temple,
Which he did on an immense nexus and whilst gathering up energies as Kas'im spoke.
He also only tore down the supports. The rest of the Temple just collapsed from... having no supports.
and using a Force storm (the lightning variant, not the wormholes, obviously) as just an apprentice; when it's stated to take Sith Masters years to be able to use it as well as Bane used at that moment.
How is that in league with Sidious' showings? Before receiving any training in the Force, Sidious crushed bulkheads and withstood being slashed at with lightsabers for weeks whilst crawling over tundras without food, water or sleep all that time.
I agree that Mando Wars Revan isn't on par with Nihilus, his later incarnations (Reborn and Resurrected) however, are entirely different matters. As they have feats and powerscaling that it at least comparable.
"At least comparable" isn't even close to "far more powerful". And it's MW Revan that's referred to in the quotes. So I don't know how you can be on the fence about it.
Likely the most labor intensive thing Sidious did up to this point was his ritual with Plagueis, and it's reasonable to assume Sidious likely contributed, let's say half (or less since Plagueis was unquestionably the more powerful one at the time), of the energy required to perform it. It can be assumed Sidious wouldn't be able to do it on his own, hence why Plagueis had to help. We can use that as a waypoint for Sidious' upper limit. So his upper limit would be below what Plagueis was capable of, making Plagueis still the superior of the two based on his feats and inferences that can be made through the performance of the ritual.
That was well before 32 BBY, though, and Sidious notes that his powers grew tenfold over the years between 52 BBY and 32 BBY. So no, it's definitely not an upper limit for 32 BBY Sidious.
She says he cares nothing for Sith teachings, she says he no longer sees the galaxy as normal Force users do. She implies pretty well that he's not Sith, the title of Sith Lord for Nihilus is really just because no better term exists.
She says he cares nothing for Sith teachings. But she still calls him a Sith Lord. There's no escaping it.
And Sidious' quotes are clearly intended for all beings held as Sith, not to mention that he has quotes referring to dark side practitioners in general. As I said, there's no escape.
Those are minor details, the basic purpose of the entry is a recap. It provides little to no new information at all.
The codex entries for Praven etc. are entirely new information that are completely unheard of in the game story or anything of the sort. As I said, it's absolutely not limited to player knowledge.
"He said there was a war coming. That it was waiting out in the unknown regions, in the dark, waiting for us to destroy each other." Said, I think, by Carth in KOTOR II. If a mere soldier like Carth knows vaguely about the Sith Empire in hiding, would you think the Jedi Council had AT LEAST an idea that SOMEATHING was out there, they said once that they felt something was behind the Mandalorian's aggression, so they obviously suspected something
Not at all. Revan didn't want the Council to know, obviously, or else he would've just told them about it when he returned from unknown space, instead of starting the Jedi Civil War over it. Revan confiding in close friends doesn't mean anything.
"I,too, lost a padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative-to the teachings that Revan brought from the unknown regions."- said by Zez Kai Ell. And there it is, they knew of the teachings Revan brought from the Unknown Regions, the knew he found something out there that turned him to the Dark Side.
That suggests that Revan found teachings from the Unknown Regions, but they could be lost and then uncovered, not necessarily handed down by an Emperor or anything. In no way did the Jedi suspect the presence of the Sith Emperor, so there's no way they could've sensed him (never mind him being so far away from them, as opposed to Sidious being under their nose).
Whereas the PT Jedi were outright told of Darth Sidious and still failed to sense him.
Galen Marek states that Felucia is strong in the Force and Juno states that the Felucians are more organized and powerful than record indicated. Galen states he suspects the hand of a Jedi behind it all. Now, I will say this source is pretty debatable. But everything Galen encountered on his way to Shaak-Ti was allied with the Jedi Master and arrayed against Galen. Suggesting they had a strong connection to the light side, which could imply that , at least a small area, of Felucia was a Nexus thanks to Shaak-Ti. And if that's the case then the mere presence of somebody like Yoda in the Jedi temple for over 800 years should have reasonably effected the alignment of that already potent nexus in a similar way.
No, there's nothing about a LS nexus here. And it'd be strange (to say the least) if TFU were the first and only source to mention a LS nexus.
Yes, raw power, which is the same as potential. So unless the argument is that Sidious was as powerful at a younger age as he was as his full potential self (DE) there's really no point worth being made here.
We're not discussing potential. We were actually discussing sensory powers. But since you were courteous enough to drop a point to me because it was getting increasingly irrelevant to the debate at hand, I'll do the same here.
Ah. While definitely an excellent feat, I won't argue that it's one of their collective best, at least for the time, the feat isn't unprecedented.
The feat is unprecedented. Just circumstantial.
What you said was correct to an extent. You originally implied that Revan would have been entirely incapable of getting back up, which is entirely false as per what happens in the novel itself. Outside circumstances aside, Revan was able to get back up. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
Obviously we consider the circumstances 😬
The circumstances didn't call for Sidious needing to unleash a wave, he has fewer targets to focus on, all in a tight space where he could easily maneuver around them and kill them with ease. Windu was the only one he even considered a threat, which shows how powerful the rest of the B-team is in comparison to anybody of Windu's caliber or above. The circumstances for Revan were somewhat different. A Force Wave was the best option for him due to the area being a wide open space with 7 or 8 opponents all standing spaced apart. Bum-rushing either strike team would have been foolish.
Not really. If Revan could blitz half of them, there wouldn't be anything foolhardy about charging in.
I think she was selling herself short and outlining that the HoT was the future of the Jedi Order. Like my comparison to Anakin's accolades suggests.
That doesn't explain the myriad of sources supporting her claim, though.
That's hardcore underrating right there. The quotes are pretty clear that the disturbance Revan caused was more than something minor like you're making it out to be. It was considered, even by the Sith, to be something potentially very dangerous.
I didn't say it was minor, just that it's being exaggerated here. And that it doesn't really put him on Sheev's tier.
I worded my last point concerning this somewhat poorly. The Sith on the SF are stated as master duelists, which is what potentially makes them deadly. The fact that they were stationed on the SF with Malak himself gives this quote a little weight. What makes the feat good for Revan is that they were as skilled as they were, and that they attacked in numbers while Revan was weakened by the SF and they were amped. It is a great stamina feat, but it's also an impressive combat feat as well. One that very few in the grand arc of Star Wars could replicate.
I'd like to see some quotes for the SF Sith, actually, although of course it does make sense that they're some of the strongest Sith on the time.
It's impressive as a combat feat, but only to an extent. It's mostly stamina. Revan was fighting a few, then another few, then another few, etc.
I said as much already, that doesn't change that they are still very impressive in their own rights.I said as much already, but she's still very powerful. And her showings are enough to solidify her as a powerful addition to the strike team she was on.
It doesn't matter if you give them general accolades like "impressive". We're comparing the two teams. Lana isn't even close to any of the protags.
They don't "shit" on them, but they are solidly superior. With the exception of Shae Vizsla, she's easily comparable to any of the non-Force using protags.
Perhaps, but that's still overall inferiority. We've also yet to consider the already significant disparity between the Force using members.
Add all the disparities together, and you have an absolutely colossal disparity.
There's nothing to suggest Revan was amped, the entirety of Yavin IV wasn't a nexus. Any "amp" Revan received was negligible, as none of the Dark Side characters made any reference to feeling stronger on Yavin and no light side characters made reference to feeling weaker. So there likely wasn't an amp for anybody. The fact that Revan lost to them and first and then was able to come back for more almost immediately afterwards is incredibly impressive, despite your nonsensical opinion to the contrary, which seems to be what you're implying.
It was, and Revan was fighting in the Temples, which were definitely amp locations. And yes, Satele notes how the immeasurably powerful nexus of Oricon was incomparable to the nexus on Yavin IV. So it's huge.
And regardless, even if he wasn't amped, he's still stronger than a hindered novel Revan, who's healed himself from worse. So your point has absolutely no merit whatsoever.
Originally posted by SunRazerOh, I see what you're saying. I'll try to remember to quote specifically from here on out. My apologies for that. I'll respond to you counters later, right now I need to sleep.
No, you quote, but not specifically. I have to go back to check what you're responding to constantly, which slows my progress considerably. Whereas I quote the relevant sections I'm responding to, and respond to just that, then move on to another section, etc.
Actually, they can. And they can definitely have circumstances.Feats are what the characters do with their powers, it's a picture of what they're capable of via action. Unless on a nexus or amped by an outside means, feats cannot be fallacious.
Powerscaling doesn't put Revan above Nihilus, and Nihilus' feats are easily, easily better.
Which he did on an immense nexus and whilst gathering up energies as Kas'im spoke. He also only tore down the supports. The rest of the Temple just collapsed from... having no supports.
How is that in league with Sidious' showings? Before receiving any training in the Force, Sidious crushed bulkheads and withstood being slashed at with lightsabers for weeks whilst crawling over tundras without food, water or sleep all that time.
"At least comparable" isn't even close to "far more powerful". And it's MW Revan that's referred to in the quotes. So I don't know how you can be on the fence about it.
―Darth Sion (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
Revan is stated to be the second most powerful character in the Old Republic era after Vitiate. TOR acknowledges the events of both the KOTOR games, so Nihilus would be covered under this banner.
"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."
―Michael Backus (Star Wars: The Old Republic Head Writer)
That was well before 32 BBY, though, and Sidious notes that his powers grew tenfold over the years between 52 BBY and 32 BBY. So no, it's definitely not an upper limit for 32 BBY Sidious.
Feat happened before ____year=not valid for any time before that? Because that makes sense.
She says he cares nothing for Sith teachings. But she still calls him a Sith Lord. There's no escaping it. And Sidious' quotes are clearly intended for all beings held as Sith, not to mention that he has quotes referring to dark side practitioners in general. As I said, there's no escape.
The codex entries for Praven etc. are entirely new information that are completely unheard of in the game story or anything of the sort. As I said, it's absolutely not limited to player knowledge.
Not at all. Revan didn't want the Council to know, obviously, or else he would've just told them about it when he returned from unknown space, instead of starting the Jedi Civil War over it. Revan confiding in close friends doesn't mean anything.
That suggests that Revan found teachings from the Unknown Regions, but they could be lost and then uncovered, not necessarily handed down by an Emperor or anything. In no way did the Jedi suspect the presence of the Sith Emperor, so there's no way they could've sensed him (never mind him being so far away from them, as opposed to Sidious being under their nose). Whereas the PT Jedi were outright told of Darth Sidious and still failed to sense him.
No, there's nothing about a LS nexus here. And it'd be strange (to say the least) if TFU were the first and only source to mention a LS nexus.
The feat is unprecedented. Just circumstantial.
The Force consists of two related, but distinct, elements: the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. The Living Force is generated by the energy of living beings throughout the galaxy. This is the Force at its most immediate and instinctive level. It is this aspect of the Force that allows for many of the impressive abilities that have fueled the aura of legend around the Jedi and Sith, and that still excites the galaxy's imagination. The ability to trick the minds of other beings, to sense their presence, and to manipulate physical objects all come from the Living Force.
From (Star Wars: Force and Destiny - Core Rulebook)
In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
He felt the first hints of what was waiting for him when the shuttle dropped out of hyperspace. Through the windows of the cockpit he saw a gray-and-brown planet looming large before them. Gazing at it, he felt something strange and unsettling. Something unnatural.
It took him several moments to realize what was wrong, and even when he did, he didn’t fully grasp the implications. He wasn’t feeling the Force.
The sensation was completely alien. The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted. But it was always there in some way, shape, or form.
Now, however, he felt nothing. He had become so accustomed to the presence of the Force in the background that its complete absence was almost overwhelming, leaving him unable to speak.
“Prepare yourself,” Nyriss said. “We’re going down to the surface.”
The absence grew steadily more pronounced as the shuttle approached and then landed on Nathema.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
Among other quotes.
Obviously we consider the circumstances erm
Not really. If Revan could blitz half of them, there wouldn't be anything foolhardy about charging in.
That doesn't explain the myriad of sources supporting her claim, though.
I didn't say it was minor, just that it's being exaggerated here. And that it doesn't really put him on Sheev's tier.
Based on what was said by those who said it, I don't feel it was at all exaggerated. The text was pretty clear imo.
I'd like to see some quotes for the SF Sith, actually, although of course it does make sense that they're some of the strongest Sith on the time. It's impressive as a combat feat, but only to an extent. It's mostly stamina. Revan was fighting a few, then another few, then another few, etc.
It doesn't matter if you give them general accolades like "impressive". We're comparing the two teams. Lana isn't even close to any of the protags.
It was, and Revan was fighting in the Temples, which were definitely amp locations. And yes, Satele notes how the immeasurably powerful nexus of Oricon was incomparable to the nexus on Yavin IV. So it's huge. And regardless, even if he wasn't amped, he's still stronger than a hindered novel Revan, who's healed himself from worse. So your point has absolutely no merit whatsoever.